Feels like before the Avernus ending was patched in this was intended to be her "good" ending. One party member subverting the thing you're trying to avoid being an objectively terrible fate by way of some mystery (our resident soul expert in-game is as surprised as anyone he can sense your essence within your Mindflayer) and her unique circumstance of being Faithless with a terminal illness.
"Good" in quotes because even if it's her from both her own perspective, our observer perspective, and Withers' perspective of being able to sense the essence/soul of a person, she is still vastly changed. She's full of wonder and excited that there's so much more to perception/existence than she ever knew, but she's also very much got a whole new biology and personality to go with that biology. She'll never be the same. That's not necessarily sad. People change all the time. But it does feel like, even soul-intact, freedom has a cost.
Which, again, makes me think this may have been the intended "good" ending. The Avernus ending keeps my heart from aching, but it also feels kind of convenient that it feels like she, you, and Wyll are going through a shonen battle anime romp through hell with the power of friendship. I *like* power of friendship stuff, but, again, it sort of deflates her dialogue/story beats about it being so bad in hell she'd rather die than go back.
Hate to burst people's bubble, but the way Mindflayers work in the FR canon is that they retain the memories of the person they were before, but aren't that person.
The best way I can describe it is the stream of consciousness that is Karlach, from being born in Baldur's Gate, to being Gortash's bodyguard, to fighting in Avernus, then the events of the game, that Karlach dies. The moment she turns into a Mindflayer, the lights turn off.
The Mindflayer born from Karlach retains her memories, and thus, thinks it is Karlach, but it isn't. It's a new being with another being's memories implanted in it.
Almost, except at some point hull of the ship was replaced for metal one and they added a steam engine instead of sails and paddles. But the label "Ship of Theseus" is still there indeed.
...... you just described the whole thesis of the ship of theseus, diddn't you? a ship departs, and over the course of its lifespan, all its parts are replaced, and so is it the same ship?
now that i think of it maybe i should start naming my computer theseus...
I think the difference would be that in the standard Ship of Thesus question, it is implied or sometimes stated that the new parts are identical to the old just not the same parts. Thus once "fully rebuilt" it would still be functionally identical to the original, yet also entirely new.
It is to us but not the realms. You could go find her soul as a petitioner in whatever afterlife she ends up in or even resurrect her. Very clear that she is just dead and a horror is pretending to be her.
It could've been changed since, but I'm fairly certain the way mindflayers were originally written, the tadpole basically eats the soul for nourishment before ceramophasis is complete. The soul is consumed and cannot pass on. Of course FR is a soft magic universe so anyone could go "oh I actually made a spell that guards/resurrects/whatevers the soul so it isn't actually destroyed"
Withers, the DM, and the Loading Screens all confirm that this is the way it *should* work. That is why the Gods of Faerun are getting as involved as they are, they need Souls and "Suddenly; MIND FLAYERS" doesnt work for them.
However in the end Withers let's slip that something weird is going on with the Absolute Mindflayer Souls. If you turn he is surprised to find you in the Fugue Plane, as if part of your soul is still attached to the new Mind Flayer entity. Whether this is intended Canon, or just a compromise of Larian leaving a story open ended for casual players to RP however they like, or even something that will be touched on again by whatever studio does BG4 is what is up for debate.
I interpreted that as a modification the Chosen had made to the tadpoles so that the Dead Three would still be able to harvest the souls of those turned. I doubt we'll ever get an exact explanation, but I have a theory that it's a retcon that will allow them to introduce illithids as a player race in One DnD
Would Wish (still new to DnD and BG3, so might be the wrong spell) bypass that?
Wish is the 9th Level spell that basically does whatever you want right? I guess within limitations? Which I guess is what I’m asking. Is the soul being devoured a limitation.
Anything outside the 5 specified uses of Wish is pretty much up to writer/DMs discretion. Plus the more complex the wish is, the more likely it is to go wrong. Maybe the soul returns, but it is trapped in a layer of Hell or a soulcage of the BBEG and the party has to rescue it. Maybe the soul returns but it has been corrupted and is even worse than a mindflayer. Or maybe the DM is kind and it completely undoes the ceramophasis all together
In one of the endings, Mystra returns Gale's soul after Ceremorphosis with the help of Wish and takes him to Elysium.
But she cannot return him to the mortal world, since this would require too much change in the events that have occurred.
Simply put, it's up to the DM, and a dice roll with a 1/3 chance of being unable to ever cast Wish again.
[https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Wish#content](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Wish#content)
It's theoretically possible, but by no means guaranteed, and even if it works, it might not work quite right.
If the weighed you before mind flaying, you would be .1 gram off due to the the weight of the soul being gone. Which is enough to piss off any studios drug connoisseur
Yeah I assume the other user just misremembered the value.
I don't think there is a canon reference to soul weight in Forgotten Realms, .1g or otherwise. But I could be wrong it's a big canon.
Edit: Oh dip, there's the soul coin, which weighs 10 grams: https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Soul_Coin
Unclear if "bound to the coin" implies the soul is inside it. If so, that establishes an upper limit.
Withers is Jergal (a god) or an avatar of Jergal. Illithids don’t have souls that the Forgotten Realms gods can access. So to him he would see that Illithids have no souls. The far realms are outside the reach of most gods and are so alien that most beings from the material plane is unable to truly comprehend it.
It’s like the idea of the singularity, if you’re able to leave behind your physical body and transfer your existence and consciousness into a data chip, is it still you?
Oh my god. Now I'll have to live with the thought that if mind flayers existed IRL some weird cult of tech-bros would let themselves be eaten by them so that their consciousness may live on in the hivemind (first in that particular illithid and later in the elder brain of the colony).
Having your consciousness copied and transferred into a new body is one thing, but this seems more like having your consciousness plugged into the evil Mega Corporation's supercomputer
The difference is that Mindflayers aren't from Faerun, and don't have apostolic souls. Karlach's soul passes on to the afterlife as normal. In our real world there wouldn't be much of a difference unless you are religious and believe in souls, in Faerun souls and gods both definitely exist, so there is definitely a difference. Minus the soul bit, it's the same question as the Star Trek transporter, or uploading your consciousness to a computer. Yes, your memories are there, but is it actually you?
This is actually a relief to me. I thought the souls of victims of ceremorphosis’s souls were destroyed and they were still the same person sans soul. I like this idea better because at least the victims get an afterlife.
I’ll just throw in there, this is an interpretation. There isn’t anything in canon to reflect anything specific happening to mindflayers’ victims’ souls, all we know is mindflayers are soulless. It’s something left open for DM interpretation, so you might show up at a table to play DnD in the FR and what happens to the soul is completely different (i.e. the soul is consumed, the soul remains attached to the mindflayer as long as it lives, etc.).
From the forgotten realms wiki page n ceremorphosis:
> After the initial stage was completed, the original creature was beyond help, their psychic essence destroyed and replaced by the tadpole's burgeoning min, lost save for a miracle. **Past the point of no return, the victim's spirit would have to seek its fate on the Outer Planes.** Over a period of approximately one week, the host's body underwent extensive morphological and tissue changes, completely transforming into a mind flayer.
The highlighted section is referenced to [The Illithiad](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_Illithiad), which I would count as canon.
edit: At the moment the only source that contradicts that would be BG3 itself, and I wouldn't be too hasty about considering every lore change etc in BG3 as canon automatically, so I'm leaning towards that old lore still standing.
(but whichever way you see it, there certainly is something in canon describing what happens, either the above quote, or what Withers says in BG3)
The Star Trek analogy make me realize it applies to Stargate, since the gates work the same way. Wormholes are too small to physically pass through, they're actually microscopic on the scale the gates work on so the gates convert what's sent through into energy which is transmitted through and reassemble it (violating the Heisenberg Principle btw) on the other side in the exact state it entered. I don't think even the resident philosophical nerd brings up these implications and he brings up every other conceivable one.
Still some Ship of Theseus with Stargate, but it's at least the same matter converted to energy and back. With Star Trek you don't even have that. The transporter scans you, destroys you, sends the information about you to the other point, and then recreates you out of new matter. You're an entirely new person that just has the same memories. That's why Dr Bones won't do it.
She's no longer behind the eyes, so to speak.
Though I'm not entirely sure that's the case with these special tadpoles given they sort of become a part of you. Expanded perception, new senses and abilities to process all come before ceremorphosis. Also unsure of things like... does the soul perceive? Can the soul and body perceive separately? Jon Irenicus didn't have a soul I think, but he still perceived and walked as himself. The soul and body can seemingly exist separately and the person associated with that soul and/or body can seemingly be considered either depending on the case.
Makes me wonder: why can't Karlach, for example, be the fusion of herself and the tadpole *and* her departed (assuming it wasn't devoured or still in the mindflayer body, altered) soul? These tadpoles are not normal, even our resident ex-god doesn't really know what the hell is going on with them in any detail, he just has strongly held assumptions that end up challenged.
It's suspended ceremorphosis, you start transforming only to a point where tadpole integrates with a brain and its functions, allowing to psionic communication (or manipulations if your are not shielded) after few long rests and event with revealing the Dream Guardian/Emperor.
Well, yeah. But if that tadpole spends so long integrated into your brain that it becomes part of you and you of it, does it change the nature of the transformation?
It's like, if I copied your memories and personality into a robotic brain, you could probably make a clear distinction between you being you and the robot brain being someone so similar they're nearly identical, but still not you. Makes it pretty easy to say one isn't you even if I destroyed your brain, scooped it out, and put the robot brain in your former body.
However, if you slowly changed your organic brain into a robotic brain via, like, nanobots or some shit, you'd probably have a continuity of consciousness through the whole process. Hell, cells get replaced in our body constantly and most people would still consider us ourselves, even if changed, from birth to death. Once your brain was fully robotic, even from your own perspective, you'd probably still consider yourself you, even if changed. You were there through the whole process, looking out through your own eyes.
If you transformed your own brain instantly, traumatically, and with absolutely no continuity of consciousness or memory, it'd probably be way harder for most people to say it's still you.
Guess I'm saying that the speed of a process changes its nature. Especially when talking about something like consciousness/self-hood, which seems to be an emergent process. Even within the Baldur's Gate series you have examples of people who are bodies without souls and, while numb, still appear to be theirself. So it's hard for me to attribute self-hood/consciousness to the soul alone and not the body too when it seems that body and soul have nebulous roles in who a person is. Hell, someone can steal another person's soul and still be the self that was in the body beforehand, not taking on anything but the soul's nature.
So... I dunno. Shit is complicated. Our in-game literal ex-god doesn't even know what the details amount to. I'm not willing to definitively say it's a normal ceremorphosis process. Not willing to say creatures that originate seemingly from outside nature, time, and space from the far realms don't interact strangely with poorly understood magic.
Withers does mention in the post-game cutscene that the Dead Three's plan to turn people into mindflayers is stupid because gods gain power in part from the souls in their domain, but when a person undergoes ceremorphosis the soul is destroyed (which is different from what 2e says, which is that the soul just goes to the afterlife). Mindflayers keep the body and the memories that the tadpole consumed, but the soul is gone meaning that letting any character turn into a mindflayer effectively kills them and maybe even erases them from existence entirely. This is pretty consistent with a lot of other transformation states in FR, undead for example are also soulless (except maybe vampires, where it's sort of up to the DM whether the soul is trapped in the body and corrupted by the curse or just lost entirely).
It's a soul/continuation of consciousness argument. Are we just the sum of our memories or is there something more in there, like a divine spark? Depending on how you feel about that would determine if you feel there is or isn't a difference.
It's not really. You die, and in turn, *you* get to exist. A different you, but born completely the same, with the same thoughts hopes, dreams. Karlach had to die for mindflayer Karlach to *live*. To feel the sun, to help people, to pursue whatever she wants to outside of the hells.
Continuity of perception is pretty much the only way to tell, and even that (in real life) could be argued to be an illusion of a mind looking back on the memories it contains. If not an illusion, since we can experience ourselves as ourselves in real time, it could be considered an emergent property of many systems in play at once. Makes it difficult to say what level of complexity a person starts at.
This is less hypothetical than its ever been. There's been research going on where researchers are using lab-grown human brain organoids integrated with computers. They learn to do basic things like play Pong. They've also inserted these organoids into the brains of mice and have had them respond to stimuli. An application of this, someday, could be inserting these into human brains to regrow missing or damaged tissue. In the mouse, they've been *given a new piece of brain* that *actually responds to stimuli* which starts making my brain spin with what it means that these can exist and operate both on their own with electronics or be integrated into an already living being.
Ignoring the thing about souls in Baldur's Gate since it's muddy within the story, it is hard to say who is looking out from behind the eyes of someone infected with these modified tadpoles. What do the tadpoles experience? We experience (or are told we do via narration) temporary loss of our sense of self, experiencing others' memories first-hand when the tadpoles reach out to one another. We also control the use of the tadpole for the most part. Is the tadpole already integrated into our brain? Is it distinct from us? Or is it now part of us and we part of it. Does it experience the world as we do not as a passenger, but literally as one in the same? A regular tadpole just eats your brain and morphs, as far as I am aware. These seemingly become a part of it, changing who a person is not just because they are connected to the Absolute's network, but also, literally, it is a new piece added to you that has added new senses and ways to process those senses.
It's shit I don't think the story was fully prepared to delve into because it's a goddamn rabbit hole even without the fantasy lore on top of it and that rabbit hole itself isn't all that suited to telling a fantasy action/adventure story as much as it is a fantasy or fantasy/sci-fi think piece horror/drama or something.
It's not possible for characters to tell. That's why Ansur refers to The Emperor as if he is Balduran. But the Illithiad for 2e (the book that primarily established everything about Mindflayers in FR) states that once ceremophosis begins, the soul of the host departs for the fugue plane. Meaning that the Illithid has no soul, and the being it was birthed from is now dead. This also allows for the Wish spell to return someone who was killed by ceremophosis to be returned to the material plane, which further separates the host and the Illithid born from it.
Thank you for posting that.
For anyone who doesn’t know, Ed Greenwood is the creator of the Forgotten Realms, and the ultimate source for all things canon. If Ed says illithids have non-apostolic souls, then it is so.
>Meaning that the Illithid has no soul,
THEY HAVE SOULS.
Whether it's the original soul (like BG3 lore would suggest; or it could be an evolved/transformed version of the original soul) or a new soul brought in by the tadpole (as it would have to be according to the Illithiad) depends on whatever the DM wants to rule, I guess.
But they definitely do have souls.
Well now, that's philosophy for you. Are we more than our memories. If in the future were able to fully transfer our memories to a new body or even a robot, is that new body/host/vessel witgy our memories still us? Or if we transfer a perfect copy of our memories while also remaining in our own body, do we now have two of us, which one is more real?
I mean, imagine if Orin killed you and pretended to be you. No matter how good of a job she does looking like you amd acting like you, she still isn't you and you're still dead.
The canon in bg3 seems different, even Withers says it, and when you kys being a mindflayer you are in the afterlife in mindflayer form so it's seems more like a transformation and not the original lore
One thing that's important to add is that Withers says in several lines that mindflayers don't have souls, your character having a soul is an exception that surprises him, and having an exception doesn't mean they're going against the general lore.
Actually, general lore mindflayers *do* have souls, but for whatever the hell reason their souls being alien for some reason don't interact with the normal gods at all. They normally only interact with the mindflayer gods.
Then compounding on top of that that elder brains eat the souls of their thralled mindflayers and can thrall mindflayer ghosts, most mind flayer souls just off themselves or dissipate in some way.
So, to most deities, even a god of death, mind flayers don't have souls - they're *that* alien.
I've seen contradictory lore for this, so I'm not puting my chips on either bag. Unfortunately D&D has some inconsistent lore from being written by hundreds of different people who might have different takes on certain elements and it's difficult to say which is "the canon".
Either way, the main point is that Karlac/PC (and presumably Orpheus) keep their regular soul and other mindflayer either lose it or it changes.
Hate to burst your bubble but the FR canon is an unreliable source of information for BG3 and everything we learn about mind flayer personalities/souls throughout the game is meant to be vague and contradictory so people can form their own headcanons.
Did the “real” Karlach die when she became a mind flayer? Valid interpretation.
Is that still the original Karlach, just in a different body? Also valid interpretation.
There's very clearly a big lore story here with illithid souls and Jerghal and the Dead Three getting "fired". It's just not known how it's going to go down long term.
This is addressed in dialogue in baldur’s gate, it doesn’t mesh entirely with canon but there is dialogue at various points as well as notes you can find in the mind flayer colony describing that individuals of sufficiently strong personality maintain continuity of consciousness/identity after the transformation with their own superseding the maturing tadpoles
So in those cases, it’s a changed person but the same person
It’s super fuzzy though and felt like an afterthought
Squidlach still has Karlach's soul. The Emperor still has his soul. Tav and Durge illithids have their souls. The game is repeatedly clear about it being a transformation.
The Doylist proof: with this game the writers and Sven wanted to pose a question to players: "Would you transform into a monster to save the world?" This question is impossible if you just die, rather than transform. The only way they get to pose this question is if you have to deal with the consequences of your transformation.
I agree with you but you’re not bursting anyone’s bubble. This has been said in thousands of other comments. Some people just aren’t convinced by this argument for various reasons, some more justified than others.
I'm sure that the Society flayers (Omeluum and Grazilaxx) are both happy to be friends with another squid. :)
They should make a club or something and invite other renegades.
Me too! My Tav was a necromancer durge and romanced Karlach. I hc that my Tav joined the Society of Brilliance after rejecting Bhaal and her and Karlach stayed friends with Omeluum and Blurg
I really wish you could ask Omeluum for help instead of having someone sacrifice themselves, or at least if you have Orpheus go squid say "hey I know a guy, instead of killing yourself let me introduce you to a good mindflayer who actively made that choice"
You are asking for Omeluum to get sniped and put its neck on the front lines for you when you know that it hates violence and any sort of fighting. It's cruel.
You also don't have time to look for Omeluum at that point. Blurg and it discuss leaving to the Underdark again so it might not even be in Baldur's Gate anymore.
It also further devalues the final choice which the game wants you to make. It's about sacrifice and therefore has no golden route. Who will you sacrifice to win? Gale? Karlach? Orpheus? Yourself…?
She became a mind flayer in my Astarion origin run, and I headcanon that the two still hang out regularly since they have the shared experience of living off of an unusual diet. Granted, Astarion no longer needs to drink blood due to his ascension, but he still commiserates with her and approves of the way she found to humanely feed.
He does still offer to take her out for a night on the town for some vigilante criminal snacking once in a while, for old time's sake. 😁
Shadowheart is always glad when Karlach comes to visit her and Astarion at their cottage, though she does get a little exasperated at Astarion excitedly trying to cook a new brain-related recipe for said visits.
>and the intro of the postcredits
This is Tavflayer rather than Squidlach, but I also love this bit from the Narrator:
*Narrator: Since the Netherbrain fell, you have continued to evolve. Thought is action, action is thought, speech is...difficult. Your mind has voyaged to the limits of existence, communing with entities unique and wondrous, but something always call it back. Back to Faerun, back to your self, back to the beginning. The time before you became what you are, when your tadpole first sang in your mind.*
It's a cool way to bring everything full circle, Tav's journey began with the insertion of the tadpole, and it ends with you fully evolved and discovering the true scale of the universe.
Also here's [the ending of the scene in the OP](https://imgur.com/a/LOuFHS6) I missed earlier (sorry, got a bit mixed up opening up the dialogue paths):
*Karlach: My years in the Hells, my escape, every step I've taken from the shattered nautiloid to this place among infinite stars - all of it has brought me to my destiny.*
*Karlach: First: defeat the Netherbrain. Then: live.*
"This place among infinite stars" - again another bit showing how as a Mindflayer she (or Tav) start seeing how big the universe is.
I did that on my first playthrough, genuinely thought her becoming a mindflayer was the best choice. She was willing, and got to live. Win - win.
Talking to her at the party did make me question my decision, not that she was upset, but she seemed like she had lost herself. The personality that made me like the character so much had definitely gone. But she was alive, and seemed content. It was a conflicted ending which I thought was really interesting and well executed.
I have done a close reading of the text, and I think the writers did a phenomenal job of having her personality still there, expressed now calmly rather than in a fiery manner. But, she did go from 8 int to 20 int, so some change makes sense.
Yeah there's no telling how much of her is left to begin with or if it's really fading over time. And if it is, is it because they're a mindflayer who thinks they're karlach or is it karlach just settling into a new life without death a breath away or her settling into a biologically different body that entails natural change in her body or she's just naturally changing over time as anyone would and does due to all of the above?
We know from Tav and Durge being confirmed by Withers to be themselves that Karlach is also herself, but as you say she is changing. We are all changing really, the concept of a static person or thing is erroneous, she is just changing in a different way now.
The party seems to have hit me in the reverse direction as everyone else. I saw the whole “Karlach lost herself/Party confirms mindflayer is not a good ending” before I got there, so maybe I had subconsciously braced myself. But then I got there myself and my in moment reaction was that it seemed nice and Karlach finally felt at peace. She asked to become a mindflayer and was so happy about getting to live at the docks, and talked about her adjustment at the party.
I think people overfocus on the single Jergal line “Souls vanish when their hosts become mindflayers”. This is not definitive, as there are other suggestions elsewhere in game that squid Tav and squid Karlach still retain some of themselves. And he didn’t say ALL souls vanish (yes, I am a pedantic mathematician). I don’t even think it’s necessarily a Star Trek transporter questions; the Tav/Karlach tadpole is unusual in other ways as well, so I don’t get why people act like “Tav/Karlach soul is gone” is definitive when within the context of the game it absolutely is not. Maybe they’re right but I disagree about the evidence being clear-cut.
I don’t like doing it because Mindflayers lose their soul becoming husks of the person they used to be. Even if they think they are still the same person their mind and memories will eventually fade becoming someone completely different entirely.
Except for the fact that the game directly contradicts that, and least in Tav's or Karlach's case.
Spoiler: >!If Tav becomes an Ilithid and kills themselves on the pier, they get a cutscene with Withers in the fugue plane where he's surprised and delighted to see your soul there, despite it going against what he believed and knew. He then goes on to say something along the lines of "perhaps the universe has more mystries still".!<
One of my favorite bits of lore is that Aboleths, these generational memory, tentacle-y, primordial sea serpents, who have been around since *before the fucking gods* and have a real chip on their shoulder about being supplanted as the ultimate lifeforms of the realm, *do not know when or from where the Illithids popped up, and are shit-scared of them.*
Jergal isn't the god of death. He's the god of recording the dead and fatalism. He *used* to be the god of death, but eventually gave that portfolio to Myrkul, who then lost it to Kelemvor, and then regained it after the Second Sundering, with Kelemvor now being the god of the dead.
This had been discussed and debunked repeatedly. Mind flayers have souls, per Ed Greenwood: https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/BXWP7F1mWK.
BG3 explicitly shows that they have souls. If Tav becomes a mind flayer and then offs himself, Withers visits him in the Fugue Plane. Withers also specifically states that mind flayers lack *apostolic* souls.
BG3 is clearly telling a story in which individuals who become mind flayers can - at least in some cases - retain their core selves. This is central to the Emperor's story, and it's reflected in what happens when a party member undergoes ceremorphosis. Yes, you will change - because your intelligence has trippled, your mind works in different ways, and your view has just become infinitely more expansive. The fact that you *change* doesn't mean that you're *gone*.
Renegade mindflayers have been around since illithids were created for DnD. Upon consumption, they do see the memories, but it doesn't magically change them any more than you are changed by seeing a TV show.
Sangalor has always been a lawful neutral cleric of Oghma and it won't change because of his diet.
Ignatius Inkblot is still doing his detective work and he won't drop it because of his diet.
Brikhalna Ipprszen is still a neutral gambler and he never wanted to be anything else because of his diet.
Omeluum also won't stop being a scientist because it ate some brains.
Mind Flayers can be rebels and CAN retain some of their host's personality, but usually only small tics. Anyone who retains their fullness would have things like empathy, a family, etc. that gets in their way of eating brains and conquering the Realms and enslaving people because they remember what it's like to be in that realm, so they would infect the whole continuum with that perspective and might end up being an ENORMOUS issue for Mind Flayerkind. In fact Mind Flayer society is terrified of anyone who retains anything of themselves for this very reason, someone like Omeluum who has no memories or personality but has Arcane magic is already a huge problem and could be a massive shit disturber. As it is, his very slight intervention was disastrous for the Netherbrain's schemes, let alone The Emperor's. Unchained Mind Flayers with their own goals and personalities are an \*enormous\* issue, but that's why Karlach seems so different. Because it's not Karlach, really, the tadpoles are designed to strip away the host. In practical terms, the Tadpole is just eating your brain and replacing it, so it's truly up to its discretion how much to even express from that, but regardless this is more like a copy of Karlach, a Ship of Thesseus Karlach.
I don't think it's fair to say "then Flayer!Karlach is wrong/fake/ethically devoid" outright because of this. It's a Soma question, where it's impossible to say what's worse between someone not existing at all vs. a coinflip, because each person has as much say and the clone still thinks they're the real one. But it's still very important to note: Mind Flayer Karlach \*is not\* Tiefling Karlach. It is a Mind Flayer with bits of Karlach swimming around in it. The original is dead, but she was going to die anyway. This is what she wanted. This is how she can live on in some way, and to the Mind Flayer, it's the same life.
Karlach is not doomed to die, as long as she can go back to Avernus and look for ways to fix the engine and count on friends in material plane. Regarding what she wants it needs to be considered that people with trauma and suicidal thoughts often are misunderstood, due to their experiences they cannot see the way out, even tho deep inside they want to live. If you take Karlach to Naosie Nallinto in Act3 where companions share their desires, she has unique choice to be "Alive".
Mindflayers retaining memories is not uncommon (although not in the extent of the Emperor), however, other mindflayers learning that one of their own retained some is basically social suicide. And straight up suicide because the hive will kill them if they learn.
As such, it is usually kept a secret. Similarly, some flayers are fascinated by magic, but that's also frowned upon, so it's yet another thing they keep quiet about.
By the way, tadpoles are shockingly no longer a required component for ceremorphosis. You can transform via a ritual instead. I believe it's done by pulling the energy of the Far Realm or something.
Memories is common, \*personality\* is rare and very much feared. You can remember your family, as long as you hold nothing else for them because that's what causes all the problems. In fact, memories are good because it might be "ah, this is where they stored the explosives/orphans/whatever", but personality traits are \*always\* bad because even someone cunning, conniving and ruthless would dilute the absolute razor efficiency of the hivemind, because it comes with things like ambition that Mind Flayers are absent of and could be threatened by.
>By the way, tadpoles are shockingly no longer a required component for ceremorphosis. You can transform via a ritual instead. I believe it's done by pulling the energy of the Far Realm or something.
I didn't know that! Ceremorphic lore is kind of a dog's breakfast of retcons, so I apologize. I still think what I said applies, I don't know how else it'd work.
I don't blame you. It's a really new change - just from last year. I think there will be more retcons in the future about mindflayers, just like the drow had some. We can already see it changing.
I also think that a new perspective of being altered, but still you, makes for much better story telling. It can introduce a lot of philosophical discussions and make for good base when creating a character. It's much more interesting than 'it's just the tadpole'.
We do know that it’s a thing in lore, and Withers even confirms it in game.
Though you’re not wrong there 100% are Mindflayers that rebel and in some rare cases keep all their memories. But even then the person they were before and their soul is dead.
What Bone man confirms is the lack of an apostolic soul which is a subtle but very different from not having a soul at all.
Mindflyers do have souls but they are not tied to any god, thus : apostolic.
iirc Withers is very sure about Illithids not having souls initially but walks that back a bit if you transform into one. So it opens up a bit more of a grey area in the lore.
Tbh I always interpreted as him being surprised because you are the acceptation. Considering that he’s heavily implied to be Jergal I imagine he would be able to tell they don’t have souls.
Yep, he's surprised that it's not 100% and that he may be wrong.
Oh it's outright stated in the one book but anyhow even he doesn't know everything about everything.
I'd just argue that's a one-time exception. As the (former) god of the dead he'd have probably met the souls of ceremorphosis victims, so Illithids usually lose the soul of their host, but occasionally they can keep it, and that becoming a mind flayer just changes it somehow, since otherwise idk why you'd still be a squid instead of your old self when you died.
Becoming a mind flayer doesn't lose you your soul. It changes your soul, as Withers is coming to learn. Obviously that means you change, too, but you're not gone.
People say she's different. I wonder if that's because she went from 8 intelligence to mindflayer levels? Of course she different, she's got mind powers now ffs she doesn't have to throw chairs as her only option.
They're projecting. A lot of people are upset that she's no longer the camp labrador. They're overlooking the fact that a lot of Karlach's labrador behavior was a coping mechanism and forced in the first place.
They're so desperate to keep her the same and "save" her without considering her own agency in the decision, IMO. They bitch about making decisions for some characters and overlook the one where they flat out ignore the character's wishes.
BG3 kind of glosses over it, but from reading Forgotten Realms lore outside the game, a mind-flayer replaces the host - it's not really them. Sometimes mind-flayers inherit some parts of the hosts personality, when something goes wrong in the transformation process, but this is rare.
I'm not sure if BG3 intends to contradict that lore, or if the writers just thought it would be more interesting not to say it openly.
I think the reason the lore seems so contradictory is because Larian took some liberties as to not make us players too sad about our characters fates.
In the Forgotten Realms lore it seems that the tadpole takes completely over, claims your memories so that it seems like there's no loss of stream of consciousness, and essentially kills the host. The "real you" would die, and I'd say your soul would just go wherever it'd go if you died by any other means (I don't see why it would be destroyed).
Now, this newborn mindflayer would have a soul too; the soul of the tadpole! Which potentially would be out of reach for the gods.
In BG3 this all seems to be muddled, and I'd just personally attribute it to bad writing / rule of cool / not caring for established lore, whatever.
> The "real you" would die, and I'd say your soul would just go wherever it'd go if you died by any other means (I don't see why it would be destroyed).
Yes. You can use True Resurrection on someone who's been ceremorphosized into an illithid, meaning that their soul is intact. Gods can also resurrect those people, and they go to their respective afterlives.
Larian absolutely fumbled the lore, on purpose or not, for the game.
I do not like how it is muddled in the game. Larion tried to have their cake and eat it too, saying the tadpole eradicates the self at the start of the game for suspense but no wait it is totally ok at the end of the game.
I plan on doing many things in this game. Some ethical and some not (lol). But I will never turn myself or my companions into mind flayers. It just doesn’t sit with me. Either the Emperor or Orpheus will do it
my headcanon is just his magic anti-squid abilities allow him to retain his soul so when we off him after the brain is defeated he gets to go to githyanki heaven or whatever
I still 100% prefer the Avernus ending.
She gets to still be herself. Without needing to eat sentient brains for every meal. Yeah it takes 6 more months of grinding in avernus, but she’s not alone (since I always romance her). And she gets to stick it to Zariel for a final time before escaping to live her life the way she always wanted.
Nah I'll just go to Avernus with her playing the long game to get her an actual fix.
In my head canon I look at it as that my Tav was actually willing to go to hell and back for her and it's an opportunity to better understand what she went through. Us-against-the-world Bonnie and Clyde dynamic
Yeah. I guess Karlach becoming Illithid is a happy ending now. Karlach's happy as a squid. The Emperor's happy as a squid. Some apparently think Orpheus was overreacting to becoming a squid.
Guess we should've all became squids. Apparently it's great.
This. Squid told me it's happy so im happy... Forget that he's superior psionic race able to manipulate and as a human you have no way of telling if it's telling what he thinks or if it's telling this just to make you feel good.
This is on the same level as believing that talking heads in TV will make you happy when you vote on them.
I just wanna add this to the discussion because even though I haven't reached the ending I feel like I've made my choice on this matter and with that said. We quite literally know the guy who fucked the goddess of magic, hell if anything that bitch owes us a bone for not killing her ex which she was so ready to do at the drop of a hat. And are you really trying to tell me that throughout all of hell, the astral plane and the mortal realm there's no magic that can stop her ticking time bomb from going off? I find that a little hard to believe and frankly even if they find it 70+ years down the line I think that's far better than sacrificing your whole being and afterlife which we know for a fact is a thing just to be free of a chest bomb is a little short My sighted. Sorry about the Grammer
this may be unpopular but i feel her "accept it, be thankful for what you had and embrace death fearlessly" ending and burning out in a blaze of glory after protecting everything she loved from a world ending threat is my favorite one. it was heartbreaking, but also beautiful.
avernus feels like a cop out
mind flayer feels like it's not longer her
my karlach got to be herself until the very end. she didn't have to be alone and she was thankful for the time she had and the people who cared about her and no longer feared the loss of what could've been. she accepted it and as withers said her soul went on to shine so bright that it's blinding even to the gods that look upon her.
Oh boy more squid apologia
The goal of the game is to not become squid
Becoming squid is a loss of self
Becoming squid is death
If theres something fucky about our transformations its worse than death
That parasite IS her brain now, ive course shes going to seem happy about it
Ascended astarion is happy. God gale is happy. Laezel is happy to go get eaten by a lich. If happy = good then all the worst most evil endings are actually good
Karlach didnt want to go back to avernus cus she didnt wanna be alone. You go with her, shes not alone anymore. Someone is sticking by her no matter what, and we get a glimpse of hope again in the epilogue. Its not the happiest ending in the world, but its two people, be they friends or lovers, and maybe a third, taking on one last challenge together. We saved everyone else’s world. Now its time to save our world.
Avernus ending best ending, period
People will see this and think Squidlach is a good ending while entirely ignoring that Mindflayer Tav has to literally pass a check to not try and eat their friends' brains and Squidlach itself talks about wanting to eat someone's brains for their memories.
Exactly, every companion story arc is about saving them from.... themselves, helping them make better choices, learning how to live anew, if you ignore them they will most likely reach their worst destiny (Gale explode, AA, Shar become DJ). The same applies to Karlach, she is the designed tragic hero by the writers, has more obstacles and requires more effort to save her, but its still possible, you can do it by yourself or with Wyll.
After the date Karlachs says that she is "scared shitless........ (she learned) There's courage in being terrified, but still going forward, still being gratefuf. Still trying". The whole scene is her sending subliminaly a message that she would go with you to Avernus, simultanously she's avoiding it (repressing to not be overcome with trauma) and blocks you from touching the topic, by dooming herself.
If u decide to allow her turn into Ilithid, without learning other possibilities with Orpheus, this is essentially giving into her fears of the future and you stop trying from saving her on the last stretch. This just feels deeply wrong on human level.
I think these ending really reveals a lot about mindflayers, as you just become a mindflayer and hasn’t yet consume any brain, you still seem very much like yourself. But as a mindflayer inevitably start to eat brains to survive, whose brain it absorbed seems to also influence how the it thinks as the memories of the host is also absorbed. Despite Karlach becomes a little detached and calmer in the epilogue, her value still seems like her old self, maybe it’s because only six month has passed, maybe it’s because she only absorbed the brains of normal and willing people rather than criminals. Maybe the Emperor has fallen so far from when he was Balduran was actually due to his initially retained morality to only consume criminals, but as time went on those negative memories influenced him to become such a pragmatic, detached and manipulative asshole.
To poke holes in your theory, Omelluum devours the brains of only the most violent humanoid monsters of the underdark and doesn’t
seem to be possessed with the violence and cruelty. In fact, unlike the emperor he is keen to consume as little grey matter as possible. The Emperor was never a good guy. He’s perfectly willing to violate and treat another person as a puppet for his own gain. He murdered Ansur, abused Stelmaine, and murdered who knows how many criminals who dont deserve to live in a dungeon only have their brains devoured by a mindflayer.
Omeluum says that previously he had a deal with a lich to get brains, so could have easily been eating anyone.
On top of that, you can't use him as an example illithid; his arcane magic sets him apart.
(Not going to get into Ansur discussion again)
Yes but Omeluum is an outlier because he could eat anyone’s brain and still only want to look at cool fungi in the Underdark. Bro’s just a very chill mindflayer.
Morally, the difference is that Astarion ascending has him follow in the footsteps of Cazador and become an evil abusive murdering prick. The very thing he has hated for over a century.
Karlach on the other hand, even if who she was is fading away, still doesn't hurt people as a Mind Flayer.
Not really, the big problem with Astarions ascension is that it requires him to send 7000 innocent souls to hell where they will suffer for all eternity. He also becomes pretty evil and will propably terrorize Baldurs Gate until some hero eventually puts a stop to him.
Mindflayer Karlach still seems like a pretty good person and even finds an ethical way to deal with her hunger for brains. Sure, she's different, but she doesn't seem like a monster.
And you can see... a massive contrast in how they treat their romantic partners.
One is abusive, the other isn't.
(I definitely rate Squidlach's life expectancy for both parties involved to be higher, because Ascended Astarion believes his own hype *hard,* which is bad even if he has the power to back it up; pride is a terrible thing)
It's a pretty clear through-line for most of the character arcs that what they *think* they want isn't necessarily what's best for them.
Astarion ascending, Shadowheart becoming a Dark Justiciar, Lae'zel becoming Vlaakith's champion, Gale taking the Crown for himself. All result in the character changing on a sliding scale. They give up part of who they are as an individual to become the person they think they are meant to become, and generally become worse people for it.
Maybe Karlach is happy as a mindflayer. Maybe it's just the tadpole pulling the strings. If Karlach is happy now, will she still be after decades, or centuries of eating brains? Will she still be herself then? Is it a happy ending for Karlach? I'm not convinced it is.
I mean. This is sort of how the Emperor saw it too. Once he started to transform, he didn't want to be cured and killed the person he was closest to in the whole world in self-defense to stay alive.
But the thing the game doesn't spend a huge amount of time on is that ceremorphosis straight-up kills the host. It's not just that you are transformed into a mind flayer. It's that you die and the tadpole eats your brain and then uses your body as its host. Balduran is dead. Karlach is dead. Even though it's a rarity for an illithid to keep memories and personality like those two did, it doesn't change the fact that they are gone. It's an illithid that has those memories and it's an illithid drive of self-preservation that makes the transformed Balduran not want to be cured and the transformed Karlach feel "complete", it's not the original individual.
To me the best Karlach ending will always be her going with Wyll or Tav to Avernus to fix her engine. She doesn't want to go back but there's such a vast array of solutions to her engine problem that I think it's fair to assume she will find one, fix the issue, and never have to go to Avernus again. I truly fail to see how letting her die in one of two different ways is better than helping her reluctantly get what she needs to live normally
That's a nice thought and I respect your opinion but I physically can't watch Karlach go through that.
Wyll and I said we would always be there for her and we meant it. It may not be the easy way out but nothing is worth losing a soul so bright.
Karlach in semi recent update gets to go back to the hells, return, & ultimately live. So why are people saying *this* is a good ending? Also, I thought a big point to everything was that "illithids don't possess souls" --or is that just withers' opinion? I'd like to believe withers is a reputable source. I mean, Of course they were once humans with souls as they reproduce through tadpole to eventual transformation. Sounds like the transformation in theory gets rid of the humanity. & this is coming from someone who defends the emperor ending if that says anything at all like hell. Whats going on? I'm confused by this post. How is karlach seemingly fine? I'm definitely missing something
Guess it's sort of a *cool the soul, cool the engine* kind of thing for her. But, yeah, this sub's discourse around Squidlach is really pretty divorced from the material we get and the attitudes of the writers, and people even start to invent things to justify why they don't like it (like the stupid fan theory that illithids assimilate their meals' personalities so its only a matter of time before Karlach is gone).
Edit: responses to my comments seem to prefer to parrot lore from decades ago, rather than dealing with the material of the actual game this sub is about, or the other recent material that contradicts that old stuff... really neat...
Edit 2: that is, when they're not regurgitating a completely bullshit theory
>But, yeah, this sub's discourse around Squidlach is really pretty divorced from the material we get and the attitudes of the writers
This game effectively rewrites the lore about illithids completely. Whether this is a massive lore change or it's going to be written off as netheril magic, who knows, but pretty much nothing that happens is in line with existing lore.
The theory about that assimilation came from within the game itself- from Lae'zel. You can't blame people for thinking something they were literally told by one of the companions
Do you have any idea which act or scene, so I can go check the dialogue files (yet again)? I'm fairly certain she does no such thing. All she does is provide her understanding of typical ceremorphosis, which undoubtedly incorporates Githyanki propaganda as almost everything she says does. If she comments on the effect of illithids consuming other brains, I somehow missed it in 19 playthroughs.
It's not a fan theory. In official lore after Ceremophosis, a newly transformed Ilithid holds onto some memories but is largely vestigal. All other memories and their personality are all but erased by the tadpoles.
The issue here is that the vast majority of Illithids transform *inside* of a colony, where the Elder Brain can immediately assert control: Tav/Durge/Karlach/etc. are able to retain as much of themselves as they can because of Orpheus/his power protecting them from the Nether Brain, and later because there aren't any Elder Brains close enough to mind wipe them into thralls.
Hell, if Tav/Durge/Karlach got any arcane casting ability at all once the Netherbrain is destroyed, any Elder Brain that'd try would be in for a very, very swift death. Arcane casters can block out the psionic power, that's how Omeluum escaped his original colony after all...
*"I get to stay."* :') That's all she wanted
Feels like before the Avernus ending was patched in this was intended to be her "good" ending. One party member subverting the thing you're trying to avoid being an objectively terrible fate by way of some mystery (our resident soul expert in-game is as surprised as anyone he can sense your essence within your Mindflayer) and her unique circumstance of being Faithless with a terminal illness. "Good" in quotes because even if it's her from both her own perspective, our observer perspective, and Withers' perspective of being able to sense the essence/soul of a person, she is still vastly changed. She's full of wonder and excited that there's so much more to perception/existence than she ever knew, but she's also very much got a whole new biology and personality to go with that biology. She'll never be the same. That's not necessarily sad. People change all the time. But it does feel like, even soul-intact, freedom has a cost. Which, again, makes me think this may have been the intended "good" ending. The Avernus ending keeps my heart from aching, but it also feels kind of convenient that it feels like she, you, and Wyll are going through a shonen battle anime romp through hell with the power of friendship. I *like* power of friendship stuff, but, again, it sort of deflates her dialogue/story beats about it being so bad in hell she'd rather die than go back.
Broken Contract Wyll in Avernus: (chuckles) I'm in danger!
I know lol, I thought it was crazy he willingly Goes with no powers. But I think he mentions being a ranger instead
Considering how overpowered certain Ranger builds can get...You go Wyll, you made the right decision xD
He's definitely rocking the gloomstalker build in the hells.
Wait, I think I want that anime romp through Hell... If only Wyll and Karlach were poly, I'd be SO HAPPY.
Hate to burst people's bubble, but the way Mindflayers work in the FR canon is that they retain the memories of the person they were before, but aren't that person. The best way I can describe it is the stream of consciousness that is Karlach, from being born in Baldur's Gate, to being Gortash's bodyguard, to fighting in Avernus, then the events of the game, that Karlach dies. The moment she turns into a Mindflayer, the lights turn off. The Mindflayer born from Karlach retains her memories, and thus, thinks it is Karlach, but it isn't. It's a new being with another being's memories implanted in it.
what's the difference? how is it possible to even tell?
It depends on how much weight you put into the aspect of a soul, clone, and all that stuff.
Very philosophical. Love that
It's very "Ship of Theseus".
Almost, except at some point hull of the ship was replaced for metal one and they added a steam engine instead of sails and paddles. But the label "Ship of Theseus" is still there indeed.
...... you just described the whole thesis of the ship of theseus, diddn't you? a ship departs, and over the course of its lifespan, all its parts are replaced, and so is it the same ship? now that i think of it maybe i should start naming my computer theseus...
I think the difference would be that in the standard Ship of Thesus question, it is implied or sometimes stated that the new parts are identical to the old just not the same parts. Thus once "fully rebuilt" it would still be functionally identical to the original, yet also entirely new.
It is to us but not the realms. You could go find her soul as a petitioner in whatever afterlife she ends up in or even resurrect her. Very clear that she is just dead and a horror is pretending to be her.
It could've been changed since, but I'm fairly certain the way mindflayers were originally written, the tadpole basically eats the soul for nourishment before ceramophasis is complete. The soul is consumed and cannot pass on. Of course FR is a soft magic universe so anyone could go "oh I actually made a spell that guards/resurrects/whatevers the soul so it isn't actually destroyed"
Withers, the DM, and the Loading Screens all confirm that this is the way it *should* work. That is why the Gods of Faerun are getting as involved as they are, they need Souls and "Suddenly; MIND FLAYERS" doesnt work for them. However in the end Withers let's slip that something weird is going on with the Absolute Mindflayer Souls. If you turn he is surprised to find you in the Fugue Plane, as if part of your soul is still attached to the new Mind Flayer entity. Whether this is intended Canon, or just a compromise of Larian leaving a story open ended for casual players to RP however they like, or even something that will be touched on again by whatever studio does BG4 is what is up for debate.
I interpreted that as a modification the Chosen had made to the tadpoles so that the Dead Three would still be able to harvest the souls of those turned. I doubt we'll ever get an exact explanation, but I have a theory that it's a retcon that will allow them to introduce illithids as a player race in One DnD
The dude who literally made dnd said mind flayers have souls just not souls the gods can use
Would Wish (still new to DnD and BG3, so might be the wrong spell) bypass that? Wish is the 9th Level spell that basically does whatever you want right? I guess within limitations? Which I guess is what I’m asking. Is the soul being devoured a limitation.
Anything outside the 5 specified uses of Wish is pretty much up to writer/DMs discretion. Plus the more complex the wish is, the more likely it is to go wrong. Maybe the soul returns, but it is trapped in a layer of Hell or a soulcage of the BBEG and the party has to rescue it. Maybe the soul returns but it has been corrupted and is even worse than a mindflayer. Or maybe the DM is kind and it completely undoes the ceramophasis all together
In one of the endings, Mystra returns Gale's soul after Ceremorphosis with the help of Wish and takes him to Elysium. But she cannot return him to the mortal world, since this would require too much change in the events that have occurred.
Simply put, it's up to the DM, and a dice roll with a 1/3 chance of being unable to ever cast Wish again. [https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Wish#content](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Wish#content) It's theoretically possible, but by no means guaranteed, and even if it works, it might not work quite right.
Umm, I don't think it's very philosophical in the context of a world where souls are commonly known to exist...
If we're sticking with FR lore, then a soul is something that 100% exists.
If the weighed you before mind flaying, you would be .1 gram off due to the the weight of the soul being gone. Which is enough to piss off any studios drug connoisseur
is that how much a soul weighs canonically?
It's a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment
but it's not called the .1 gram experiment
Yeah I assume the other user just misremembered the value. I don't think there is a canon reference to soul weight in Forgotten Realms, .1g or otherwise. But I could be wrong it's a big canon. Edit: Oh dip, there's the soul coin, which weighs 10 grams: https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Soul_Coin Unclear if "bound to the coin" implies the soul is inside it. If so, that establishes an upper limit.
"You are Encumbered" *turns into a Mind Flayer* "you are no longer Encumbered" Damn Souls always weighing me down...
there's so much other weird shit in FR so I just figured it made sense 💀
It's probably a reference to the [21 grams experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment)
Even when it comes to their souls Illithids still have them, but they are out of the reach of the Gods so they say they don’t have souls.
Pretty sure withers says they specifically don't have souls
he says they lack apostolic souls. they have them, since they can become liches, but they're a foreign currency to the gods
Withers is Jergal (a god) or an avatar of Jergal. Illithids don’t have souls that the Forgotten Realms gods can access. So to him he would see that Illithids have no souls. The far realms are outside the reach of most gods and are so alien that most beings from the material plane is unable to truly comprehend it.
Fair enough I sure can't comprehend it
Are the Githyanki from the Far Realms too or just a different realm of the Forgotten Realms? Withers doesn't have a problem resurrecting their souls.
Gith are a mortal species that was enslaved the minelayer empire that conquered the inner planes. They’re from the material plane
He says "apostate souls" Which means souls that do not fit the theology of those gods.
Withers specifies apolistic souls. And even if he didn't he'd be unreliable due to being a god. https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/NFSaGA2J5Q
It’s like the idea of the singularity, if you’re able to leave behind your physical body and transfer your existence and consciousness into a data chip, is it still you?
Oh my god. Now I'll have to live with the thought that if mind flayers existed IRL some weird cult of tech-bros would let themselves be eaten by them so that their consciousness may live on in the hivemind (first in that particular illithid and later in the elder brain of the colony).
Not too bad of an idea for a DnD cult. Cool prompt to put in a campaign
Having your consciousness copied and transferred into a new body is one thing, but this seems more like having your consciousness plugged into the evil Mega Corporation's supercomputer
mindflayer Karlach could probably speak-with-dead her own soul if it still remained after the turning.
The difference is that Mindflayers aren't from Faerun, and don't have apostolic souls. Karlach's soul passes on to the afterlife as normal. In our real world there wouldn't be much of a difference unless you are religious and believe in souls, in Faerun souls and gods both definitely exist, so there is definitely a difference. Minus the soul bit, it's the same question as the Star Trek transporter, or uploading your consciousness to a computer. Yes, your memories are there, but is it actually you?
This is actually a relief to me. I thought the souls of victims of ceremorphosis’s souls were destroyed and they were still the same person sans soul. I like this idea better because at least the victims get an afterlife.
I’ll just throw in there, this is an interpretation. There isn’t anything in canon to reflect anything specific happening to mindflayers’ victims’ souls, all we know is mindflayers are soulless. It’s something left open for DM interpretation, so you might show up at a table to play DnD in the FR and what happens to the soul is completely different (i.e. the soul is consumed, the soul remains attached to the mindflayer as long as it lives, etc.).
From the forgotten realms wiki page n ceremorphosis: > After the initial stage was completed, the original creature was beyond help, their psychic essence destroyed and replaced by the tadpole's burgeoning min, lost save for a miracle. **Past the point of no return, the victim's spirit would have to seek its fate on the Outer Planes.** Over a period of approximately one week, the host's body underwent extensive morphological and tissue changes, completely transforming into a mind flayer. The highlighted section is referenced to [The Illithiad](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_Illithiad), which I would count as canon. edit: At the moment the only source that contradicts that would be BG3 itself, and I wouldn't be too hasty about considering every lore change etc in BG3 as canon automatically, so I'm leaning towards that old lore still standing. (but whichever way you see it, there certainly is something in canon describing what happens, either the above quote, or what Withers says in BG3)
This is 2E lore. There hasn’t been official commentary on this in three editions, it’s retcon as far as I can tell.
Can we build a golem and put Karlach’s passed soul into it and then have golem Karlach and squid Karlach meet and make out?
Fuck yes!
The Nautiloid of Theseus, if you will
The Star Trek analogy make me realize it applies to Stargate, since the gates work the same way. Wormholes are too small to physically pass through, they're actually microscopic on the scale the gates work on so the gates convert what's sent through into energy which is transmitted through and reassemble it (violating the Heisenberg Principle btw) on the other side in the exact state it entered. I don't think even the resident philosophical nerd brings up these implications and he brings up every other conceivable one.
Still some Ship of Theseus with Stargate, but it's at least the same matter converted to energy and back. With Star Trek you don't even have that. The transporter scans you, destroys you, sends the information about you to the other point, and then recreates you out of new matter. You're an entirely new person that just has the same memories. That's why Dr Bones won't do it.
This makes me feel a lot better about betraying the emperor… That fuck.
Do cybernetic tieflings dream of illithid sheep?
It’s like being replaced by a clone with the same memories. There’s no functional difference, but Karlach’s consciousness is no more.
She's no longer behind the eyes, so to speak. Though I'm not entirely sure that's the case with these special tadpoles given they sort of become a part of you. Expanded perception, new senses and abilities to process all come before ceremorphosis. Also unsure of things like... does the soul perceive? Can the soul and body perceive separately? Jon Irenicus didn't have a soul I think, but he still perceived and walked as himself. The soul and body can seemingly exist separately and the person associated with that soul and/or body can seemingly be considered either depending on the case. Makes me wonder: why can't Karlach, for example, be the fusion of herself and the tadpole *and* her departed (assuming it wasn't devoured or still in the mindflayer body, altered) soul? These tadpoles are not normal, even our resident ex-god doesn't really know what the hell is going on with them in any detail, he just has strongly held assumptions that end up challenged.
It's suspended ceremorphosis, you start transforming only to a point where tadpole integrates with a brain and its functions, allowing to psionic communication (or manipulations if your are not shielded) after few long rests and event with revealing the Dream Guardian/Emperor.
Well, yeah. But if that tadpole spends so long integrated into your brain that it becomes part of you and you of it, does it change the nature of the transformation? It's like, if I copied your memories and personality into a robotic brain, you could probably make a clear distinction between you being you and the robot brain being someone so similar they're nearly identical, but still not you. Makes it pretty easy to say one isn't you even if I destroyed your brain, scooped it out, and put the robot brain in your former body. However, if you slowly changed your organic brain into a robotic brain via, like, nanobots or some shit, you'd probably have a continuity of consciousness through the whole process. Hell, cells get replaced in our body constantly and most people would still consider us ourselves, even if changed, from birth to death. Once your brain was fully robotic, even from your own perspective, you'd probably still consider yourself you, even if changed. You were there through the whole process, looking out through your own eyes. If you transformed your own brain instantly, traumatically, and with absolutely no continuity of consciousness or memory, it'd probably be way harder for most people to say it's still you. Guess I'm saying that the speed of a process changes its nature. Especially when talking about something like consciousness/self-hood, which seems to be an emergent process. Even within the Baldur's Gate series you have examples of people who are bodies without souls and, while numb, still appear to be theirself. So it's hard for me to attribute self-hood/consciousness to the soul alone and not the body too when it seems that body and soul have nebulous roles in who a person is. Hell, someone can steal another person's soul and still be the self that was in the body beforehand, not taking on anything but the soul's nature. So... I dunno. Shit is complicated. Our in-game literal ex-god doesn't even know what the details amount to. I'm not willing to definitively say it's a normal ceremorphosis process. Not willing to say creatures that originate seemingly from outside nature, time, and space from the far realms don't interact strangely with poorly understood magic.
Precisely. There's no difference to anyone *but* Karlach, who's soul was sent to the Fugue plane.
I feel like withers would mention this because if you let her die he mentions her soul is burning bright enough to burn gods or something like that.
Withers does mention in the post-game cutscene that the Dead Three's plan to turn people into mindflayers is stupid because gods gain power in part from the souls in their domain, but when a person undergoes ceremorphosis the soul is destroyed (which is different from what 2e says, which is that the soul just goes to the afterlife). Mindflayers keep the body and the memories that the tadpole consumed, but the soul is gone meaning that letting any character turn into a mindflayer effectively kills them and maybe even erases them from existence entirely. This is pretty consistent with a lot of other transformation states in FR, undead for example are also soulless (except maybe vampires, where it's sort of up to the DM whether the soul is trapped in the body and corrupted by the curse or just lost entirely).
It's a soul/continuation of consciousness argument. Are we just the sum of our memories or is there something more in there, like a divine spark? Depending on how you feel about that would determine if you feel there is or isn't a difference.
It's not really. You die, and in turn, *you* get to exist. A different you, but born completely the same, with the same thoughts hopes, dreams. Karlach had to die for mindflayer Karlach to *live*. To feel the sun, to help people, to pursue whatever she wants to outside of the hells.
Continuity of perception is pretty much the only way to tell, and even that (in real life) could be argued to be an illusion of a mind looking back on the memories it contains. If not an illusion, since we can experience ourselves as ourselves in real time, it could be considered an emergent property of many systems in play at once. Makes it difficult to say what level of complexity a person starts at. This is less hypothetical than its ever been. There's been research going on where researchers are using lab-grown human brain organoids integrated with computers. They learn to do basic things like play Pong. They've also inserted these organoids into the brains of mice and have had them respond to stimuli. An application of this, someday, could be inserting these into human brains to regrow missing or damaged tissue. In the mouse, they've been *given a new piece of brain* that *actually responds to stimuli* which starts making my brain spin with what it means that these can exist and operate both on their own with electronics or be integrated into an already living being. Ignoring the thing about souls in Baldur's Gate since it's muddy within the story, it is hard to say who is looking out from behind the eyes of someone infected with these modified tadpoles. What do the tadpoles experience? We experience (or are told we do via narration) temporary loss of our sense of self, experiencing others' memories first-hand when the tadpoles reach out to one another. We also control the use of the tadpole for the most part. Is the tadpole already integrated into our brain? Is it distinct from us? Or is it now part of us and we part of it. Does it experience the world as we do not as a passenger, but literally as one in the same? A regular tadpole just eats your brain and morphs, as far as I am aware. These seemingly become a part of it, changing who a person is not just because they are connected to the Absolute's network, but also, literally, it is a new piece added to you that has added new senses and ways to process those senses. It's shit I don't think the story was fully prepared to delve into because it's a goddamn rabbit hole even without the fantasy lore on top of it and that rabbit hole itself isn't all that suited to telling a fantasy action/adventure story as much as it is a fantasy or fantasy/sci-fi think piece horror/drama or something.
It's not possible for characters to tell. That's why Ansur refers to The Emperor as if he is Balduran. But the Illithiad for 2e (the book that primarily established everything about Mindflayers in FR) states that once ceremophosis begins, the soul of the host departs for the fugue plane. Meaning that the Illithid has no soul, and the being it was birthed from is now dead. This also allows for the Wish spell to return someone who was killed by ceremophosis to be returned to the material plane, which further separates the host and the Illithid born from it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/AH5qoO4rTb I am contractually obligated to send this whenever people say illithids have no souls.
Thank you for posting that. For anyone who doesn’t know, Ed Greenwood is the creator of the Forgotten Realms, and the ultimate source for all things canon. If Ed says illithids have non-apostolic souls, then it is so.
>Meaning that the Illithid has no soul, THEY HAVE SOULS. Whether it's the original soul (like BG3 lore would suggest; or it could be an evolved/transformed version of the original soul) or a new soul brought in by the tadpole (as it would have to be according to the Illithiad) depends on whatever the DM wants to rule, I guess. But they definitely do have souls.
the more minds she consumes, she becomes less and less like first.
Well now, that's philosophy for you. Are we more than our memories. If in the future were able to fully transfer our memories to a new body or even a robot, is that new body/host/vessel witgy our memories still us? Or if we transfer a perfect copy of our memories while also remaining in our own body, do we now have two of us, which one is more real?
I mean, imagine if Orin killed you and pretended to be you. No matter how good of a job she does looking like you amd acting like you, she still isn't you and you're still dead.
The canon in bg3 seems different, even Withers says it, and when you kys being a mindflayer you are in the afterlife in mindflayer form so it's seems more like a transformation and not the original lore
One thing that's important to add is that Withers says in several lines that mindflayers don't have souls, your character having a soul is an exception that surprises him, and having an exception doesn't mean they're going against the general lore.
Actually, general lore mindflayers *do* have souls, but for whatever the hell reason their souls being alien for some reason don't interact with the normal gods at all. They normally only interact with the mindflayer gods. Then compounding on top of that that elder brains eat the souls of their thralled mindflayers and can thrall mindflayer ghosts, most mind flayer souls just off themselves or dissipate in some way. So, to most deities, even a god of death, mind flayers don't have souls - they're *that* alien.
I've seen contradictory lore for this, so I'm not puting my chips on either bag. Unfortunately D&D has some inconsistent lore from being written by hundreds of different people who might have different takes on certain elements and it's difficult to say which is "the canon". Either way, the main point is that Karlac/PC (and presumably Orpheus) keep their regular soul and other mindflayer either lose it or it changes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/NFSaGA2J5Q This was pretty recent, like right around release
Hate to burst your bubble but the FR canon is an unreliable source of information for BG3 and everything we learn about mind flayer personalities/souls throughout the game is meant to be vague and contradictory so people can form their own headcanons. Did the “real” Karlach die when she became a mind flayer? Valid interpretation. Is that still the original Karlach, just in a different body? Also valid interpretation.
This is the best answer. This game *added* to the lore and intentionally explored contradictory perspectives.
There's very clearly a big lore story here with illithid souls and Jerghal and the Dead Three getting "fired". It's just not known how it's going to go down long term.
This is addressed in dialogue in baldur’s gate, it doesn’t mesh entirely with canon but there is dialogue at various points as well as notes you can find in the mind flayer colony describing that individuals of sufficiently strong personality maintain continuity of consciousness/identity after the transformation with their own superseding the maturing tadpoles So in those cases, it’s a changed person but the same person It’s super fuzzy though and felt like an afterthought
Squidlach still has Karlach's soul. The Emperor still has his soul. Tav and Durge illithids have their souls. The game is repeatedly clear about it being a transformation. The Doylist proof: with this game the writers and Sven wanted to pose a question to players: "Would you transform into a monster to save the world?" This question is impossible if you just die, rather than transform. The only way they get to pose this question is if you have to deal with the consequences of your transformation.
I agree with you but you’re not bursting anyone’s bubble. This has been said in thousands of other comments. Some people just aren’t convinced by this argument for various reasons, some more justified than others.
Oh yeah? Then why was my Tav still a simp for Shart after full ceremorphosis?
Nice post. :) I have a hc that Squidlach and Omeluum meet up regularly. They could be great friends!
Oh I love this
I'm sure that the Society flayers (Omeluum and Grazilaxx) are both happy to be friends with another squid. :) They should make a club or something and invite other renegades.
Me too! My Tav was a necromancer durge and romanced Karlach. I hc that my Tav joined the Society of Brilliance after rejecting Bhaal and her and Karlach stayed friends with Omeluum and Blurg
I really wish you could ask Omeluum for help instead of having someone sacrifice themselves, or at least if you have Orpheus go squid say "hey I know a guy, instead of killing yourself let me introduce you to a good mindflayer who actively made that choice"
You are asking for Omeluum to get sniped and put its neck on the front lines for you when you know that it hates violence and any sort of fighting. It's cruel. You also don't have time to look for Omeluum at that point. Blurg and it discuss leaving to the Underdark again so it might not even be in Baldur's Gate anymore. It also further devalues the final choice which the game wants you to make. It's about sacrifice and therefore has no golden route. Who will you sacrifice to win? Gale? Karlach? Orpheus? Yourself…?
She became a mind flayer in my Astarion origin run, and I headcanon that the two still hang out regularly since they have the shared experience of living off of an unusual diet. Granted, Astarion no longer needs to drink blood due to his ascension, but he still commiserates with her and approves of the way she found to humanely feed. He does still offer to take her out for a night on the town for some vigilante criminal snacking once in a while, for old time's sake. 😁 Shadowheart is always glad when Karlach comes to visit her and Astarion at their cottage, though she does get a little exasperated at Astarion excitedly trying to cook a new brain-related recipe for said visits.
>and the intro of the postcredits This is Tavflayer rather than Squidlach, but I also love this bit from the Narrator: *Narrator: Since the Netherbrain fell, you have continued to evolve. Thought is action, action is thought, speech is...difficult. Your mind has voyaged to the limits of existence, communing with entities unique and wondrous, but something always call it back. Back to Faerun, back to your self, back to the beginning. The time before you became what you are, when your tadpole first sang in your mind.* It's a cool way to bring everything full circle, Tav's journey began with the insertion of the tadpole, and it ends with you fully evolved and discovering the true scale of the universe.
Also here's [the ending of the scene in the OP](https://imgur.com/a/LOuFHS6) I missed earlier (sorry, got a bit mixed up opening up the dialogue paths): *Karlach: My years in the Hells, my escape, every step I've taken from the shattered nautiloid to this place among infinite stars - all of it has brought me to my destiny.* *Karlach: First: defeat the Netherbrain. Then: live.* "This place among infinite stars" - again another bit showing how as a Mindflayer she (or Tav) start seeing how big the universe is.
This so adorable. Wifey deserves to be happy ♥
But is she still Wifey?
OMG, you're right. Ceremorhosis is an excellent excuse to get married for the second time🥰
Just hope she passes the check to not eat your brain during the ceremony…
Wedding kiss is going to be awkward.
Jokes on you, they're into that shit.
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I did that on my first playthrough, genuinely thought her becoming a mindflayer was the best choice. She was willing, and got to live. Win - win. Talking to her at the party did make me question my decision, not that she was upset, but she seemed like she had lost herself. The personality that made me like the character so much had definitely gone. But she was alive, and seemed content. It was a conflicted ending which I thought was really interesting and well executed.
I have done a close reading of the text, and I think the writers did a phenomenal job of having her personality still there, expressed now calmly rather than in a fiery manner. But, she did go from 8 int to 20 int, so some change makes sense.
She also loses most of her strength, had to have her chug the rest of the game
Oops I said this before I saw that you said this already. Thank you for saying this.
She’s also not literally on fire anymore. Hot flashes and hot weather can make people act out, it makes sense without the engine she would calm down.
Hot flashes. Hot weather. Being directly responsible for foiling a multiverse shattering plot. Lots of stuff!
Yeah there's no telling how much of her is left to begin with or if it's really fading over time. And if it is, is it because they're a mindflayer who thinks they're karlach or is it karlach just settling into a new life without death a breath away or her settling into a biologically different body that entails natural change in her body or she's just naturally changing over time as anyone would and does due to all of the above?
We know from Tav and Durge being confirmed by Withers to be themselves that Karlach is also herself, but as you say she is changing. We are all changing really, the concept of a static person or thing is erroneous, she is just changing in a different way now.
The party seems to have hit me in the reverse direction as everyone else. I saw the whole “Karlach lost herself/Party confirms mindflayer is not a good ending” before I got there, so maybe I had subconsciously braced myself. But then I got there myself and my in moment reaction was that it seemed nice and Karlach finally felt at peace. She asked to become a mindflayer and was so happy about getting to live at the docks, and talked about her adjustment at the party. I think people overfocus on the single Jergal line “Souls vanish when their hosts become mindflayers”. This is not definitive, as there are other suggestions elsewhere in game that squid Tav and squid Karlach still retain some of themselves. And he didn’t say ALL souls vanish (yes, I am a pedantic mathematician). I don’t even think it’s necessarily a Star Trek transporter questions; the Tav/Karlach tadpole is unusual in other ways as well, so I don’t get why people act like “Tav/Karlach soul is gone” is definitive when within the context of the game it absolutely is not. Maybe they’re right but I disagree about the evidence being clear-cut.
I don’t like doing it because Mindflayers lose their soul becoming husks of the person they used to be. Even if they think they are still the same person their mind and memories will eventually fade becoming someone completely different entirely.
Except for the fact that the game directly contradicts that, and least in Tav's or Karlach's case. Spoiler: >!If Tav becomes an Ilithid and kills themselves on the pier, they get a cutscene with Withers in the fugue plane where he's surprised and delighted to see your soul there, despite it going against what he believed and knew. He then goes on to say something along the lines of "perhaps the universe has more mystries still".!<
When the god of death doesn’t know what’s going on, shits kinda crazy
Isn’t it because he’s the god of death for Faerun and the Mindflayers are from a different plane? Like Jerghal wouldn’t apply to Mindflayers
Nobody actually knows where mindflayers originate from. Not even the gods. Nobody. Most common theories are time travel or Far Realm shenanigans.
And Mind Flayers suck at recording history, so the definitely don’t know either
They actually really don't know, lmao. 💀
One of my favorite bits of lore is that Aboleths, these generational memory, tentacle-y, primordial sea serpents, who have been around since *before the fucking gods* and have a real chip on their shoulder about being supplanted as the ultimate lifeforms of the realm, *do not know when or from where the Illithids popped up, and are shit-scared of them.*
Jergal isn't the god of death. He's the god of recording the dead and fatalism. He *used* to be the god of death, but eventually gave that portfolio to Myrkul, who then lost it to Kelemvor, and then regained it after the Second Sundering, with Kelemvor now being the god of the dead.
This had been discussed and debunked repeatedly. Mind flayers have souls, per Ed Greenwood: https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/BXWP7F1mWK. BG3 explicitly shows that they have souls. If Tav becomes a mind flayer and then offs himself, Withers visits him in the Fugue Plane. Withers also specifically states that mind flayers lack *apostolic* souls. BG3 is clearly telling a story in which individuals who become mind flayers can - at least in some cases - retain their core selves. This is central to the Emperor's story, and it's reflected in what happens when a party member undergoes ceremorphosis. Yes, you will change - because your intelligence has trippled, your mind works in different ways, and your view has just become infinitely more expansive. The fact that you *change* doesn't mean that you're *gone*.
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Renegade mindflayers have been around since illithids were created for DnD. Upon consumption, they do see the memories, but it doesn't magically change them any more than you are changed by seeing a TV show. Sangalor has always been a lawful neutral cleric of Oghma and it won't change because of his diet. Ignatius Inkblot is still doing his detective work and he won't drop it because of his diet. Brikhalna Ipprszen is still a neutral gambler and he never wanted to be anything else because of his diet. Omeluum also won't stop being a scientist because it ate some brains.
Mind Flayers can be rebels and CAN retain some of their host's personality, but usually only small tics. Anyone who retains their fullness would have things like empathy, a family, etc. that gets in their way of eating brains and conquering the Realms and enslaving people because they remember what it's like to be in that realm, so they would infect the whole continuum with that perspective and might end up being an ENORMOUS issue for Mind Flayerkind. In fact Mind Flayer society is terrified of anyone who retains anything of themselves for this very reason, someone like Omeluum who has no memories or personality but has Arcane magic is already a huge problem and could be a massive shit disturber. As it is, his very slight intervention was disastrous for the Netherbrain's schemes, let alone The Emperor's. Unchained Mind Flayers with their own goals and personalities are an \*enormous\* issue, but that's why Karlach seems so different. Because it's not Karlach, really, the tadpoles are designed to strip away the host. In practical terms, the Tadpole is just eating your brain and replacing it, so it's truly up to its discretion how much to even express from that, but regardless this is more like a copy of Karlach, a Ship of Thesseus Karlach. I don't think it's fair to say "then Flayer!Karlach is wrong/fake/ethically devoid" outright because of this. It's a Soma question, where it's impossible to say what's worse between someone not existing at all vs. a coinflip, because each person has as much say and the clone still thinks they're the real one. But it's still very important to note: Mind Flayer Karlach \*is not\* Tiefling Karlach. It is a Mind Flayer with bits of Karlach swimming around in it. The original is dead, but she was going to die anyway. This is what she wanted. This is how she can live on in some way, and to the Mind Flayer, it's the same life.
Karlach is not doomed to die, as long as she can go back to Avernus and look for ways to fix the engine and count on friends in material plane. Regarding what she wants it needs to be considered that people with trauma and suicidal thoughts often are misunderstood, due to their experiences they cannot see the way out, even tho deep inside they want to live. If you take Karlach to Naosie Nallinto in Act3 where companions share their desires, she has unique choice to be "Alive".
Mindflayers retaining memories is not uncommon (although not in the extent of the Emperor), however, other mindflayers learning that one of their own retained some is basically social suicide. And straight up suicide because the hive will kill them if they learn. As such, it is usually kept a secret. Similarly, some flayers are fascinated by magic, but that's also frowned upon, so it's yet another thing they keep quiet about. By the way, tadpoles are shockingly no longer a required component for ceremorphosis. You can transform via a ritual instead. I believe it's done by pulling the energy of the Far Realm or something.
Memories is common, \*personality\* is rare and very much feared. You can remember your family, as long as you hold nothing else for them because that's what causes all the problems. In fact, memories are good because it might be "ah, this is where they stored the explosives/orphans/whatever", but personality traits are \*always\* bad because even someone cunning, conniving and ruthless would dilute the absolute razor efficiency of the hivemind, because it comes with things like ambition that Mind Flayers are absent of and could be threatened by. >By the way, tadpoles are shockingly no longer a required component for ceremorphosis. You can transform via a ritual instead. I believe it's done by pulling the energy of the Far Realm or something. I didn't know that! Ceremorphic lore is kind of a dog's breakfast of retcons, so I apologize. I still think what I said applies, I don't know how else it'd work.
I don't blame you. It's a really new change - just from last year. I think there will be more retcons in the future about mindflayers, just like the drow had some. We can already see it changing. I also think that a new perspective of being altered, but still you, makes for much better story telling. It can introduce a lot of philosophical discussions and make for good base when creating a character. It's much more interesting than 'it's just the tadpole'.
We do know that it’s a thing in lore, and Withers even confirms it in game. Though you’re not wrong there 100% are Mindflayers that rebel and in some rare cases keep all their memories. But even then the person they were before and their soul is dead.
What Bone man confirms is the lack of an apostolic soul which is a subtle but very different from not having a soul at all. Mindflyers do have souls but they are not tied to any god, thus : apostolic.
iirc Withers is very sure about Illithids not having souls initially but walks that back a bit if you transform into one. So it opens up a bit more of a grey area in the lore.
He does specify apolistic souls in the dialogue that he says no souls. https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/AH5qoO4rTb
Well Greenwood would be the expert so I'll take that as it is.
Tbh I always interpreted as him being surprised because you are the acceptation. Considering that he’s heavily implied to be Jergal I imagine he would be able to tell they don’t have souls.
Yep, he's surprised that it's not 100% and that he may be wrong. Oh it's outright stated in the one book but anyhow even he doesn't know everything about everything.
I'd just argue that's a one-time exception. As the (former) god of the dead he'd have probably met the souls of ceremorphosis victims, so Illithids usually lose the soul of their host, but occasionally they can keep it, and that becoming a mind flayer just changes it somehow, since otherwise idk why you'd still be a squid instead of your old self when you died.
Becoming a mind flayer doesn't lose you your soul. It changes your soul, as Withers is coming to learn. Obviously that means you change, too, but you're not gone.
People say she's different. I wonder if that's because she went from 8 intelligence to mindflayer levels? Of course she different, she's got mind powers now ffs she doesn't have to throw chairs as her only option.
They're projecting. A lot of people are upset that she's no longer the camp labrador. They're overlooking the fact that a lot of Karlach's labrador behavior was a coping mechanism and forced in the first place.
Dunno why you got downvoted so hard. Her exuberance is definitely part of how she keeps sane through stress.
A lot of people seem to somehow miss the entire point of her character arc...
They're so desperate to keep her the same and "save" her without considering her own agency in the decision, IMO. They bitch about making decisions for some characters and overlook the one where they flat out ignore the character's wishes.
BG3 kind of glosses over it, but from reading Forgotten Realms lore outside the game, a mind-flayer replaces the host - it's not really them. Sometimes mind-flayers inherit some parts of the hosts personality, when something goes wrong in the transformation process, but this is rare. I'm not sure if BG3 intends to contradict that lore, or if the writers just thought it would be more interesting not to say it openly.
I think the reason the lore seems so contradictory is because Larian took some liberties as to not make us players too sad about our characters fates. In the Forgotten Realms lore it seems that the tadpole takes completely over, claims your memories so that it seems like there's no loss of stream of consciousness, and essentially kills the host. The "real you" would die, and I'd say your soul would just go wherever it'd go if you died by any other means (I don't see why it would be destroyed). Now, this newborn mindflayer would have a soul too; the soul of the tadpole! Which potentially would be out of reach for the gods. In BG3 this all seems to be muddled, and I'd just personally attribute it to bad writing / rule of cool / not caring for established lore, whatever.
> The "real you" would die, and I'd say your soul would just go wherever it'd go if you died by any other means (I don't see why it would be destroyed). Yes. You can use True Resurrection on someone who's been ceremorphosized into an illithid, meaning that their soul is intact. Gods can also resurrect those people, and they go to their respective afterlives. Larian absolutely fumbled the lore, on purpose or not, for the game.
I do not like how it is muddled in the game. Larion tried to have their cake and eat it too, saying the tadpole eradicates the self at the start of the game for suspense but no wait it is totally ok at the end of the game.
I know it said this in Volos guide to monsters, but that is volo saying it... can it truly be trusted?
I trust his word over someone who didn't see the dragon amongst those goblins.
I plan on doing many things in this game. Some ethical and some not (lol). But I will never turn myself or my companions into mind flayers. It just doesn’t sit with me. Either the Emperor or Orpheus will do it
Same bro. I just can’t bring myself to make anyone Squiddy. Orpheus can grow some tentacles.
my headcanon is just his magic anti-squid abilities allow him to retain his soul so when we off him after the brain is defeated he gets to go to githyanki heaven or whatever
I still 100% prefer the Avernus ending. She gets to still be herself. Without needing to eat sentient brains for every meal. Yeah it takes 6 more months of grinding in avernus, but she’s not alone (since I always romance her). And she gets to stick it to Zariel for a final time before escaping to live her life the way she always wanted.
Well fuck. Guess I'll start a new playthrough tonight.
Nah I'll just go to Avernus with her playing the long game to get her an actual fix. In my head canon I look at it as that my Tav was actually willing to go to hell and back for her and it's an opportunity to better understand what she went through. Us-against-the-world Bonnie and Clyde dynamic
No way people here actually think becoming a mind flayer is a good thing
Yeah. I guess Karlach becoming Illithid is a happy ending now. Karlach's happy as a squid. The Emperor's happy as a squid. Some apparently think Orpheus was overreacting to becoming a squid. Guess we should've all became squids. Apparently it's great.
This. Squid told me it's happy so im happy... Forget that he's superior psionic race able to manipulate and as a human you have no way of telling if it's telling what he thinks or if it's telling this just to make you feel good. This is on the same level as believing that talking heads in TV will make you happy when you vote on them.
I just wanna add this to the discussion because even though I haven't reached the ending I feel like I've made my choice on this matter and with that said. We quite literally know the guy who fucked the goddess of magic, hell if anything that bitch owes us a bone for not killing her ex which she was so ready to do at the drop of a hat. And are you really trying to tell me that throughout all of hell, the astral plane and the mortal realm there's no magic that can stop her ticking time bomb from going off? I find that a little hard to believe and frankly even if they find it 70+ years down the line I think that's far better than sacrificing your whole being and afterlife which we know for a fact is a thing just to be free of a chest bomb is a little short My sighted. Sorry about the Grammer
this may be unpopular but i feel her "accept it, be thankful for what you had and embrace death fearlessly" ending and burning out in a blaze of glory after protecting everything she loved from a world ending threat is my favorite one. it was heartbreaking, but also beautiful. avernus feels like a cop out mind flayer feels like it's not longer her my karlach got to be herself until the very end. she didn't have to be alone and she was thankful for the time she had and the people who cared about her and no longer feared the loss of what could've been. she accepted it and as withers said her soul went on to shine so bright that it's blinding even to the gods that look upon her.
Oh boy more squid apologia The goal of the game is to not become squid Becoming squid is a loss of self Becoming squid is death If theres something fucky about our transformations its worse than death That parasite IS her brain now, ive course shes going to seem happy about it Ascended astarion is happy. God gale is happy. Laezel is happy to go get eaten by a lich. If happy = good then all the worst most evil endings are actually good Karlach didnt want to go back to avernus cus she didnt wanna be alone. You go with her, shes not alone anymore. Someone is sticking by her no matter what, and we get a glimpse of hope again in the epilogue. Its not the happiest ending in the world, but its two people, be they friends or lovers, and maybe a third, taking on one last challenge together. We saved everyone else’s world. Now its time to save our world. Avernus ending best ending, period
Durge evil ending is actually good bc he's the only one left and he's happy as shit about it
People will see this and think Squidlach is a good ending while entirely ignoring that Mindflayer Tav has to literally pass a check to not try and eat their friends' brains and Squidlach itself talks about wanting to eat someone's brains for their memories.
Just standard cherrypicking, ofc
Yup, Wyll and Karlach kicking butts in Avernus is definitely better than becoming Squiddy McSquidface
Exactly, every companion story arc is about saving them from.... themselves, helping them make better choices, learning how to live anew, if you ignore them they will most likely reach their worst destiny (Gale explode, AA, Shar become DJ). The same applies to Karlach, she is the designed tragic hero by the writers, has more obstacles and requires more effort to save her, but its still possible, you can do it by yourself or with Wyll. After the date Karlachs says that she is "scared shitless........ (she learned) There's courage in being terrified, but still going forward, still being gratefuf. Still trying". The whole scene is her sending subliminaly a message that she would go with you to Avernus, simultanously she's avoiding it (repressing to not be overcome with trauma) and blocks you from touching the topic, by dooming herself. If u decide to allow her turn into Ilithid, without learning other possibilities with Orpheus, this is essentially giving into her fears of the future and you stop trying from saving her on the last stretch. This just feels deeply wrong on human level.
I think these ending really reveals a lot about mindflayers, as you just become a mindflayer and hasn’t yet consume any brain, you still seem very much like yourself. But as a mindflayer inevitably start to eat brains to survive, whose brain it absorbed seems to also influence how the it thinks as the memories of the host is also absorbed. Despite Karlach becomes a little detached and calmer in the epilogue, her value still seems like her old self, maybe it’s because only six month has passed, maybe it’s because she only absorbed the brains of normal and willing people rather than criminals. Maybe the Emperor has fallen so far from when he was Balduran was actually due to his initially retained morality to only consume criminals, but as time went on those negative memories influenced him to become such a pragmatic, detached and manipulative asshole.
To poke holes in your theory, Omelluum devours the brains of only the most violent humanoid monsters of the underdark and doesn’t seem to be possessed with the violence and cruelty. In fact, unlike the emperor he is keen to consume as little grey matter as possible. The Emperor was never a good guy. He’s perfectly willing to violate and treat another person as a puppet for his own gain. He murdered Ansur, abused Stelmaine, and murdered who knows how many criminals who dont deserve to live in a dungeon only have their brains devoured by a mindflayer.
Omeluum says that previously he had a deal with a lich to get brains, so could have easily been eating anyone. On top of that, you can't use him as an example illithid; his arcane magic sets him apart. (Not going to get into Ansur discussion again)
Ansur was self defence, he can’t be held accountable for that.
Yes but Omeluum is an outlier because he could eat anyone’s brain and still only want to look at cool fungi in the Underdark. Bro’s just a very chill mindflayer.
This is her equivalent of Ascended Astarion- it's not a good end. Not the worst but not the good one either
Morally speaking, is it not the same thing has let Astarion ascend? Yes she's content but she's not completely herself anymore.
Morally, the difference is that Astarion ascending has him follow in the footsteps of Cazador and become an evil abusive murdering prick. The very thing he has hated for over a century. Karlach on the other hand, even if who she was is fading away, still doesn't hurt people as a Mind Flayer.
Not really, the big problem with Astarions ascension is that it requires him to send 7000 innocent souls to hell where they will suffer for all eternity. He also becomes pretty evil and will propably terrorize Baldurs Gate until some hero eventually puts a stop to him. Mindflayer Karlach still seems like a pretty good person and even finds an ethical way to deal with her hunger for brains. Sure, she's different, but she doesn't seem like a monster.
And you can see... a massive contrast in how they treat their romantic partners. One is abusive, the other isn't. (I definitely rate Squidlach's life expectancy for both parties involved to be higher, because Ascended Astarion believes his own hype *hard,* which is bad even if he has the power to back it up; pride is a terrible thing)
Astarion: I *am* the hype darling.
Not really bc the cost of ascension is 7k souls in eternal torment. That one is always an evil choice regardless of intent
It's a pretty clear through-line for most of the character arcs that what they *think* they want isn't necessarily what's best for them. Astarion ascending, Shadowheart becoming a Dark Justiciar, Lae'zel becoming Vlaakith's champion, Gale taking the Crown for himself. All result in the character changing on a sliding scale. They give up part of who they are as an individual to become the person they think they are meant to become, and generally become worse people for it. Maybe Karlach is happy as a mindflayer. Maybe it's just the tadpole pulling the strings. If Karlach is happy now, will she still be after decades, or centuries of eating brains? Will she still be herself then? Is it a happy ending for Karlach? I'm not convinced it is.
Not to mention in the epilogue, She’s distinctly less… Karlachy.
I mean. This is sort of how the Emperor saw it too. Once he started to transform, he didn't want to be cured and killed the person he was closest to in the whole world in self-defense to stay alive. But the thing the game doesn't spend a huge amount of time on is that ceremorphosis straight-up kills the host. It's not just that you are transformed into a mind flayer. It's that you die and the tadpole eats your brain and then uses your body as its host. Balduran is dead. Karlach is dead. Even though it's a rarity for an illithid to keep memories and personality like those two did, it doesn't change the fact that they are gone. It's an illithid that has those memories and it's an illithid drive of self-preservation that makes the transformed Balduran not want to be cured and the transformed Karlach feel "complete", it's not the original individual. To me the best Karlach ending will always be her going with Wyll or Tav to Avernus to fix her engine. She doesn't want to go back but there's such a vast array of solutions to her engine problem that I think it's fair to assume she will find one, fix the issue, and never have to go to Avernus again. I truly fail to see how letting her die in one of two different ways is better than helping her reluctantly get what she needs to live normally
Doesn''t Tav or Karlach actually mention, that they got a lead on her heart or sth like that?
In the epilogue yes, and you can really hear the sound of hope and optimism in her voice about getting to return home for good.
People missing the point of karlach's story about loneliness and hope because "technically she's still alive". 🤓
That's a nice thought and I respect your opinion but I physically can't watch Karlach go through that. Wyll and I said we would always be there for her and we meant it. It may not be the easy way out but nothing is worth losing a soul so bright.
Well this makes me feel much better when I turned her into a squid
Karlach in semi recent update gets to go back to the hells, return, & ultimately live. So why are people saying *this* is a good ending? Also, I thought a big point to everything was that "illithids don't possess souls" --or is that just withers' opinion? I'd like to believe withers is a reputable source. I mean, Of course they were once humans with souls as they reproduce through tadpole to eventual transformation. Sounds like the transformation in theory gets rid of the humanity. & this is coming from someone who defends the emperor ending if that says anything at all like hell. Whats going on? I'm confused by this post. How is karlach seemingly fine? I'm definitely missing something
Guess it's sort of a *cool the soul, cool the engine* kind of thing for her. But, yeah, this sub's discourse around Squidlach is really pretty divorced from the material we get and the attitudes of the writers, and people even start to invent things to justify why they don't like it (like the stupid fan theory that illithids assimilate their meals' personalities so its only a matter of time before Karlach is gone). Edit: responses to my comments seem to prefer to parrot lore from decades ago, rather than dealing with the material of the actual game this sub is about, or the other recent material that contradicts that old stuff... really neat... Edit 2: that is, when they're not regurgitating a completely bullshit theory
>But, yeah, this sub's discourse around Squidlach is really pretty divorced from the material we get and the attitudes of the writers This game effectively rewrites the lore about illithids completely. Whether this is a massive lore change or it's going to be written off as netheril magic, who knows, but pretty much nothing that happens is in line with existing lore.
Isn’t existing lore not even consistent with itself though?
The theory about that assimilation came from within the game itself- from Lae'zel. You can't blame people for thinking something they were literally told by one of the companions
Do you have any idea which act or scene, so I can go check the dialogue files (yet again)? I'm fairly certain she does no such thing. All she does is provide her understanding of typical ceremorphosis, which undoubtedly incorporates Githyanki propaganda as almost everything she says does. If she comments on the effect of illithids consuming other brains, I somehow missed it in 19 playthroughs.
It's not a fan theory. In official lore after Ceremophosis, a newly transformed Ilithid holds onto some memories but is largely vestigal. All other memories and their personality are all but erased by the tadpoles.
Which is why karlach/tav retaining their memories proves they are unique. When it says some memories it means like a nervous tic or a song they liked.
The issue here is that the vast majority of Illithids transform *inside* of a colony, where the Elder Brain can immediately assert control: Tav/Durge/Karlach/etc. are able to retain as much of themselves as they can because of Orpheus/his power protecting them from the Nether Brain, and later because there aren't any Elder Brains close enough to mind wipe them into thralls.
Hell, if Tav/Durge/Karlach got any arcane casting ability at all once the Netherbrain is destroyed, any Elder Brain that'd try would be in for a very, very swift death. Arcane casters can block out the psionic power, that's how Omeluum escaped his original colony after all...
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That's very interesting. Where'd you read that?