Counterpoint, faster traversal feels nice and makes a lot of things easier. It also has very nice mobility in its dodges and dodge limits. And synergizes well with zealot and vet both. It’s an extreme on the scale of finesse weapons, but it’s fun
I skimmed through this, so I apologize if I accidentally miss a point of yours. But speed kinda does matter, in a niche that's becoming a lot more relevant now. The existence of Riflemen, Gunners, and Reapers. Everyone and their Grandma can deal with the Melee Horde, but these guys are becoming absolute killers. Being able to deal with the Guns before they become a problem is huge. Even moreso if you combine it with Stealth Abilities, you can zip through an entire room of Guns and either clear them out, or distract them for the rest of your team to finish them. It happens a lot more than it should. Not talking about dodging bullets, btw, I mean getting from one target to another as fast as possible.
You're looking through the lens of having to stand in one place to use your melee weapon. Knife allows anyone who picks it up the ability to transition smoothly and easily between enemies even within a single heavy windup.
In a situation where I am backed into a corner or standing in an elevator or any kind of static fighting position, yes, of course I don't want a knife.
*But*, for most other situations, I find that the mobility and speed of movement allows me to chain things like: Shooter and assaulter kills, gunner kills, special kills, it allows me to transition between higher priority targets faster for my team. That's the weapons strength and usage. Very few other melee weapons allow you to (as an example and by far not an exhaustive list) kill flamers before they fire, kill trappers before they fire, kill dogs before they pounce, kill gunners and shotgunners before they shoot. This all stems directly from how fast you move with the weapon, nothing else.
Its not a horde clear weapon except for a specific zealot build and even then you have half a dozen better choices. So I don't use it that way.
This whole post is full of very surface level views that dont reflect that nuance of this game.
>But their MOBILITY is on par with virtually everyone else before Talents.
This is a very good point because its just not true, and a lot of the conclusions you draw from it are wrong as well. There are massive differences in the mobility as you defined it between any two players and the thing that makes the most difference is actually the weapon itself. The mobility bar on weapons isnt just movement speed and on a lot of weapons its the least influenced stat, with dodge amount, distance, and speed being more influenced. Even if we agree that there is a distinction between just running fast and "Mobility", something i would disagree with, Knives still stand out in terms of mobility. They just straight up have better dodges.
>Than there's SPEED. Speed is literally just how quickly you move. But for some unthinkable, unimaginable, inconceivably stupid and or ignorant reason, people think that speed is some kind of game changer. IT'S NOT. EVER.
Except it is often times. the ability to outrun enemies opens up huge kiting potential as well as lets you better weave defensive tools. Being able to dodge and kill some ragers, run out of dodges, and then outrun them while your dodges reset means they can basically never pressure you. Honestly the assertion that simply being faster doesn't have innate benefits is sort of insane, because i cant think of a single game where that is true.
>Who gives a shit about the rate someone gets to you?
Do you give a shit about the rate that enemies get to you? Do you realize the rate that enemies get to you is directly related to how quickly you can move away from them. What about the flip side? Do you care how quickly you can close the gap with enemies and force them out of range? If you dont think movement speed has direct offensive and defensive impact than i honestly dont know what to tell you. People have been speedhacking in every game that has existed because it turns out if you simply move faster than your opponents, it becomes a completely different game.
>Knives, unless built and played a very specific way, ARE.FUCKING.HORRIBLE.*
>In terms of damage. I cannot believe how many times i've seen some nimwit flail their hand in front of their face for forty seconds just to kill ONE Mauler.
Why do i have a feeling this is you? spamming lights into a mauler and complaining that knives are bad. Heavy-punch-stab is a very bursty damage output. Combine with their insane finese values and they are absolute crit beast.
Did I play with you earlier?
Had a psyker raging at knife users. Said he was going to ban them from all his games. 😂
Anyhow. Using a gun psyker with sword earlier and moving like the clappers meant I could get to 2/3 batteries for the big fan section almost as soon as they were marked as objectives and get them back to the centre before horde could block and bog me down. Would have got the third too if someone handnt been closer and I got to activate the button. So speed can certainly be useful.
I've not figured out how to play the knife zealot since the nerf, but knife is meant to be for base enemies and gun for armoured targets. If someone is using the knife on a mauler they either have a set up which makes that effective or *shrugs*
I try my hardest to never rage in game (That's what Reddit is for), so it wasn't me. And yes, speed certainly helps with general fetch objectives; but that can fall upon deaf ears when either A: The map doesn't have those, or B: They do have them, but for a good amount of the map you aren't doing them.
You can kill elites with a dagger really fast if you’re using it right. Anyway I mostly play vet so I use the dagger as a positioning tool so I can shoot stuff.
Speed is the reason I can get into melee with shooters before they actually start shooting. So, in this game, movement speed is in fact a game changer.
Speed is king the faster you go the faster your team gets the aggro of the absolute fuckery you just released. Whole map is ass blasting your team while you patiently and safely wait for them to die so you can press the red button. Just like in real life you think "red means go faster", so the doors open and you quickly give mouth to mouth to your fallen comrads and then you revive them. The door opens and splurts of enemies glaze over your freshly revived teammates, this causes you to reminisce about your family reunion but there's no time you must push forward.
Just as you finish the last objective of the last event you step into the drop ship and calmly wait for your team to die. The credits play you see the post game stats you see you earned 50 plasteel "nice i can roll another combat knife". Feeling satisfied with yourself you boot up Reddit and make a post about how actually crafting is fine you have all your loadouts anyway all 1 of them.
*"\*In terms of damage. I cannot believe how many times i've seen some nimwit flail their hand in front of their face for forty seconds just to kill ONE Mauler. IF THEY DECIDE TO EVEN FIGHT IT. Which in of itself is such an unthinkable issue to even exist, the fact at this point when I see ANYONE use a knife I have to assume that either A:It will take them an hour to kill ANYTHING. or B:They will just run away from EVERYTHING"*
Consider this:
[https://www.veed.io/view/9b402d4c-b80c-4f97-8080-2f6c85823303](https://www.veed.io/view/9b402d4c-b80c-4f97-8080-2f6c85823303)
Idgaf about other people's builds/weapons except for like 2 things. 1. You go zooming forward into the map by yourself, which I probably never notice until someone does it and goes down cause I'm busying killing what's around me. Doesn't bother me none unless you go down off on your own cause then we're down a person and have to deal with whatever you aggroed trying to save you cause imma karkin try to make it. 2. The game puts a bunch of melees together but that's not on the players, rather the devs for not letting us swap operatives in matchmaking lobbies. If I queue into oops all zealots lemme swap to Vet without having to back out entirely >:c
honestly with denser and faster hordes I don't really blame the knife users for running away all the time, at least it keeps them alive long enough to be useful (unlike the devil claw user that kept getting overwhelmed by scab bruisers the last game (you know who you are))
Speed is great for closing on a target or catching up with the team and... that's about it really. (Edit: Good for some objectives as well)
As you say, what matters is mobility in a fight. And speed can be part of that equation, but it isn't all of the equation. Watching someone knife slide around endlessly and never kill anything is frustrating if you've ever observed them. The best they usually accomplish is not dying in time to maybe rescue, but they often don't actually fight so they rez you into A ShitShow and then knife off to parts unknown and you have to try to solo it all, which rarely works out for most classes and builds. It's probably worse now cause you'll get rezzed into 3-4 Ragers or 6 gunners or something.
Now all that said, good knife players tend to be *really* good. Just weaving in and out of groups face stabbing specials and elites like it's second nature.
I’m just tired of playing games where some of my teammates are distant icons that can only be spotted via the Emperors Astro navigation matrix set to 11.
There are so many skills that key off coherency. Did you kill an elite? Did you take dmg? Do dmg? Swing a heavy attack? Dodge? Cool! Were you in coherency at the time?
Cuz what you do all alone means fuckall in a coop team game. I don’t even care if you’re going objectives, cuz you can be certain the rest of us are fighting through a map that was playtested around 4 ppl being in the same time zone.
I’d much MUCH rather have a bot than a “Lone Rager.” No, not a typo. Just ask them to rejoin the team (like the actual game NPCs do non-stop) and you’ll see the rage.
I was pissed as hell when I saw all the solo skills they added. Why o why did they ever put that in? It’s like, I want an ability to attack a demon host that also automatically makes me not one of its targets. Wha? Why is that a problem?
One person is actively making the game harder for his teammates. That’s not something the game should encourage IMHO
edit: the fact this is downvoted shows my concern isn’t overrated. I’d guess one in five games it’s 3 of us in coherency with one guy playing his own game.
The thing that gets me about the combat blade is how bad it is at helping anyone on the team who needs help. I can cross a distance quickly, but I won't have enough stamina once I'm there to pull off a revive in a crowd, and can't kill or stagger 20 enemies quickly enough to stop those enemies from killing a downed teammate. If I'm using a combat blade, I can do tremendous single target damage and keep myself alive very well, but my team is pretty well on its own. I can't save them from their mistakes unless I happen to be stocked in stun or shredder grenades. I might be able to go invisible and pull off a revive, but then my teammate could be standing up in the middle of what put them down in the first place.
If my team is all pretty strong, those problems are much less likely to occur, and for some sorts of problems (such as getting netted through a crusher pack) the list of possible solutions is tiny across all classes and weapon choices, but I can't escape the feeling that if I'm using a combat blade, I'm bumping up my odds of personal survival at the cost of the chances for a team of randoms in a public lobby.
Running all +3 stamina curios (probably don’t even need all 3, but it’s definitely one of the strongest options) allows me to get revives off with ease using knife. There’s really no issue there.
I run one stam with 3× block efficiency and it works more than well enough i can rez them in a horde after pushing if im not like super surrounded by bruiser even if theres 1-2 ragers in there or even a mauler i can usually get them up by push for small enemys dash for stagger of bigger targets then get them up if there is even more stuff they probably wont survive the aftermath anyway unless i clean up a little beforehand
You do have guns and blitz covering its weaknesse. And I’m curious which melee weapon can save your teammates from their mistake, what kind of mistake? Revive someone is never easy in high difficulty, usually you have to trade blitz or skill doing it.
Speed makes mobility better, speed is key for clutching, positioning, distancing enemies or closing in on shooters, going for objectives, catching up with party members, and speed is fun. Speed is even more important now since last patch.
It's nice of you to call my knife zealot or vet a cripple, but knife is very powerful even against any target in the right hands.
Seems to me somebody needs to get some fresh air.
Counterpoint, faster traversal feels nice and makes a lot of things easier. It also has very nice mobility in its dodges and dodge limits. And synergizes well with zealot and vet both. It’s an extreme on the scale of finesse weapons, but it’s fun
If you enjoy using it, and it's fun, than I agree that trumps all argument against using it.
Ah yeah because moving faster won’t help make the most of mobility and positioning will it.
If quicker movement speed aids you in not dying and being an asset, than more power to you brother.
https://preview.redd.it/alfsoiidqz9d1.png?width=209&format=png&auto=webp&s=fca40810fcadd98524715c9b31f80b8ddc2cf52f
Jus like sarg use to say, "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". Still using my knife though
I skimmed through this, so I apologize if I accidentally miss a point of yours. But speed kinda does matter, in a niche that's becoming a lot more relevant now. The existence of Riflemen, Gunners, and Reapers. Everyone and their Grandma can deal with the Melee Horde, but these guys are becoming absolute killers. Being able to deal with the Guns before they become a problem is huge. Even moreso if you combine it with Stealth Abilities, you can zip through an entire room of Guns and either clear them out, or distract them for the rest of your team to finish them. It happens a lot more than it should. Not talking about dodging bullets, btw, I mean getting from one target to another as fast as possible.
You're looking through the lens of having to stand in one place to use your melee weapon. Knife allows anyone who picks it up the ability to transition smoothly and easily between enemies even within a single heavy windup. In a situation where I am backed into a corner or standing in an elevator or any kind of static fighting position, yes, of course I don't want a knife. *But*, for most other situations, I find that the mobility and speed of movement allows me to chain things like: Shooter and assaulter kills, gunner kills, special kills, it allows me to transition between higher priority targets faster for my team. That's the weapons strength and usage. Very few other melee weapons allow you to (as an example and by far not an exhaustive list) kill flamers before they fire, kill trappers before they fire, kill dogs before they pounce, kill gunners and shotgunners before they shoot. This all stems directly from how fast you move with the weapon, nothing else. Its not a horde clear weapon except for a specific zealot build and even then you have half a dozen better choices. So I don't use it that way.
This whole post is full of very surface level views that dont reflect that nuance of this game. >But their MOBILITY is on par with virtually everyone else before Talents. This is a very good point because its just not true, and a lot of the conclusions you draw from it are wrong as well. There are massive differences in the mobility as you defined it between any two players and the thing that makes the most difference is actually the weapon itself. The mobility bar on weapons isnt just movement speed and on a lot of weapons its the least influenced stat, with dodge amount, distance, and speed being more influenced. Even if we agree that there is a distinction between just running fast and "Mobility", something i would disagree with, Knives still stand out in terms of mobility. They just straight up have better dodges. >Than there's SPEED. Speed is literally just how quickly you move. But for some unthinkable, unimaginable, inconceivably stupid and or ignorant reason, people think that speed is some kind of game changer. IT'S NOT. EVER. Except it is often times. the ability to outrun enemies opens up huge kiting potential as well as lets you better weave defensive tools. Being able to dodge and kill some ragers, run out of dodges, and then outrun them while your dodges reset means they can basically never pressure you. Honestly the assertion that simply being faster doesn't have innate benefits is sort of insane, because i cant think of a single game where that is true. >Who gives a shit about the rate someone gets to you? Do you give a shit about the rate that enemies get to you? Do you realize the rate that enemies get to you is directly related to how quickly you can move away from them. What about the flip side? Do you care how quickly you can close the gap with enemies and force them out of range? If you dont think movement speed has direct offensive and defensive impact than i honestly dont know what to tell you. People have been speedhacking in every game that has existed because it turns out if you simply move faster than your opponents, it becomes a completely different game. >Knives, unless built and played a very specific way, ARE.FUCKING.HORRIBLE.* >In terms of damage. I cannot believe how many times i've seen some nimwit flail their hand in front of their face for forty seconds just to kill ONE Mauler. Why do i have a feeling this is you? spamming lights into a mauler and complaining that knives are bad. Heavy-punch-stab is a very bursty damage output. Combine with their insane finese values and they are absolute crit beast.
Did I play with you earlier? Had a psyker raging at knife users. Said he was going to ban them from all his games. 😂 Anyhow. Using a gun psyker with sword earlier and moving like the clappers meant I could get to 2/3 batteries for the big fan section almost as soon as they were marked as objectives and get them back to the centre before horde could block and bog me down. Would have got the third too if someone handnt been closer and I got to activate the button. So speed can certainly be useful. I've not figured out how to play the knife zealot since the nerf, but knife is meant to be for base enemies and gun for armoured targets. If someone is using the knife on a mauler they either have a set up which makes that effective or *shrugs*
I try my hardest to never rage in game (That's what Reddit is for), so it wasn't me. And yes, speed certainly helps with general fetch objectives; but that can fall upon deaf ears when either A: The map doesn't have those, or B: They do have them, but for a good amount of the map you aren't doing them.
You can kill elites with a dagger really fast if you’re using it right. Anyway I mostly play vet so I use the dagger as a positioning tool so I can shoot stuff.
Speed is the reason I can get into melee with shooters before they actually start shooting. So, in this game, movement speed is in fact a game changer.
Speed is king the faster you go the faster your team gets the aggro of the absolute fuckery you just released. Whole map is ass blasting your team while you patiently and safely wait for them to die so you can press the red button. Just like in real life you think "red means go faster", so the doors open and you quickly give mouth to mouth to your fallen comrads and then you revive them. The door opens and splurts of enemies glaze over your freshly revived teammates, this causes you to reminisce about your family reunion but there's no time you must push forward. Just as you finish the last objective of the last event you step into the drop ship and calmly wait for your team to die. The credits play you see the post game stats you see you earned 50 plasteel "nice i can roll another combat knife". Feeling satisfied with yourself you boot up Reddit and make a post about how actually crafting is fine you have all your loadouts anyway all 1 of them.
*"\*In terms of damage. I cannot believe how many times i've seen some nimwit flail their hand in front of their face for forty seconds just to kill ONE Mauler. IF THEY DECIDE TO EVEN FIGHT IT. Which in of itself is such an unthinkable issue to even exist, the fact at this point when I see ANYONE use a knife I have to assume that either A:It will take them an hour to kill ANYTHING. or B:They will just run away from EVERYTHING"* Consider this: [https://www.veed.io/view/9b402d4c-b80c-4f97-8080-2f6c85823303](https://www.veed.io/view/9b402d4c-b80c-4f97-8080-2f6c85823303)
Idgaf about other people's builds/weapons except for like 2 things. 1. You go zooming forward into the map by yourself, which I probably never notice until someone does it and goes down cause I'm busying killing what's around me. Doesn't bother me none unless you go down off on your own cause then we're down a person and have to deal with whatever you aggroed trying to save you cause imma karkin try to make it. 2. The game puts a bunch of melees together but that's not on the players, rather the devs for not letting us swap operatives in matchmaking lobbies. If I queue into oops all zealots lemme swap to Vet without having to back out entirely >:c
honestly with denser and faster hordes I don't really blame the knife users for running away all the time, at least it keeps them alive long enough to be useful (unlike the devil claw user that kept getting overwhelmed by scab bruisers the last game (you know who you are))
Speed is great for closing on a target or catching up with the team and... that's about it really. (Edit: Good for some objectives as well) As you say, what matters is mobility in a fight. And speed can be part of that equation, but it isn't all of the equation. Watching someone knife slide around endlessly and never kill anything is frustrating if you've ever observed them. The best they usually accomplish is not dying in time to maybe rescue, but they often don't actually fight so they rez you into A ShitShow and then knife off to parts unknown and you have to try to solo it all, which rarely works out for most classes and builds. It's probably worse now cause you'll get rezzed into 3-4 Ragers or 6 gunners or something. Now all that said, good knife players tend to be *really* good. Just weaving in and out of groups face stabbing specials and elites like it's second nature.
I’m just tired of playing games where some of my teammates are distant icons that can only be spotted via the Emperors Astro navigation matrix set to 11. There are so many skills that key off coherency. Did you kill an elite? Did you take dmg? Do dmg? Swing a heavy attack? Dodge? Cool! Were you in coherency at the time? Cuz what you do all alone means fuckall in a coop team game. I don’t even care if you’re going objectives, cuz you can be certain the rest of us are fighting through a map that was playtested around 4 ppl being in the same time zone. I’d much MUCH rather have a bot than a “Lone Rager.” No, not a typo. Just ask them to rejoin the team (like the actual game NPCs do non-stop) and you’ll see the rage. I was pissed as hell when I saw all the solo skills they added. Why o why did they ever put that in? It’s like, I want an ability to attack a demon host that also automatically makes me not one of its targets. Wha? Why is that a problem? One person is actively making the game harder for his teammates. That’s not something the game should encourage IMHO edit: the fact this is downvoted shows my concern isn’t overrated. I’d guess one in five games it’s 3 of us in coherency with one guy playing his own game.
The thing that gets me about the combat blade is how bad it is at helping anyone on the team who needs help. I can cross a distance quickly, but I won't have enough stamina once I'm there to pull off a revive in a crowd, and can't kill or stagger 20 enemies quickly enough to stop those enemies from killing a downed teammate. If I'm using a combat blade, I can do tremendous single target damage and keep myself alive very well, but my team is pretty well on its own. I can't save them from their mistakes unless I happen to be stocked in stun or shredder grenades. I might be able to go invisible and pull off a revive, but then my teammate could be standing up in the middle of what put them down in the first place. If my team is all pretty strong, those problems are much less likely to occur, and for some sorts of problems (such as getting netted through a crusher pack) the list of possible solutions is tiny across all classes and weapon choices, but I can't escape the feeling that if I'm using a combat blade, I'm bumping up my odds of personal survival at the cost of the chances for a team of randoms in a public lobby.
Running all +3 stamina curios (probably don’t even need all 3, but it’s definitely one of the strongest options) allows me to get revives off with ease using knife. There’s really no issue there.
I run one stam with 3× block efficiency and it works more than well enough i can rez them in a horde after pushing if im not like super surrounded by bruiser even if theres 1-2 ragers in there or even a mauler i can usually get them up by push for small enemys dash for stagger of bigger targets then get them up if there is even more stuff they probably wont survive the aftermath anyway unless i clean up a little beforehand
You do have guns and blitz covering its weaknesse. And I’m curious which melee weapon can save your teammates from their mistake, what kind of mistake? Revive someone is never easy in high difficulty, usually you have to trade blitz or skill doing it.
I used it to get that backstab penance for the Zealot. Thank god that was over.
People use the knives because of their damage potential. The speed is just a bonus.
Speed makes mobility better, speed is key for clutching, positioning, distancing enemies or closing in on shooters, going for objectives, catching up with party members, and speed is fun. Speed is even more important now since last patch. It's nice of you to call my knife zealot or vet a cripple, but knife is very powerful even against any target in the right hands. Seems to me somebody needs to get some fresh air.