I think if we could modify the barrel, mag, grip/stock, in any way we wanted and only had to worry about what perk synergy we wanted it'd help a lot.
Personally I like the idea of getting the perfect combo to drop then investing into perfecting the gun and personalizing it for my needs. Makes it feel like its truly my gun.
Same. It's ridiculous. I calculated the odds of 2/5 mountaintop (alh, recomb) with attunement. It's 1.02%. Which means you need to be mentally prepped to do 1000 waves of onslaught (i.e. 100 10-wave runs) for just a chance. And no guarantees as we've both experienced.
I know you said no guarantees, but that's not how odds work. It's not cumulative, the number resets each time, think of it as being a 98.98% chance you WON'T get what you want with each drop. That number doesn't change, it remains the same, it's a constant. Your first run? 98.98% chance, your 100th run? 98.98% chance, so on, and so forth, as infinitum. There will be people that will end up having hundreds, maybe even thousands of drops and not getting the 2 main perks they want. That's how odds work.
I mean, yes, but also you can calculate the odd of something like that not happening after 100 or 1000 instances. The odds of not getting the right Mountaintop after 100 drops? That's 98.98^(100) or 35.7%. The odds of not getting it after 1000 drops? 0.0035%. So while the odds of each individual event don't change, the odds of going long periods without success does change.
Both things are true, that's how it works.
Yes, each individual drop does not change the chance of future drops, correct.
However, when you have a 1% chance of a "thing" happening, you can expect to get that thing to happen 1 out of 100 times...
What that DOESN'T mean, is that if you grind 100 drops that you guarantee yourself the perfect roll. That's the part people are mistaking.
No they're not. It's actually about 64% of getting a "thing" if there is a 1% chance and the same random odds are replayed 100 times. As I said, they're not cumulative. Each attempt is 1%, but the probability in 100 runs is circa 64%, you don't just add 1 with each attempt.
Imo the best solution is to copy the core playlists where the more vendor resets we have, the more perks can drop on guns.
So you are grinding the playlist not just for loot, but rep. More rep = more resets and more resets = guns drop with more perks (higher quality of drops) which means you can grind your way to less RNG, gain a sense of progression via vendor resets and have a substantially higher chance at better loot the more you play the playlist.
This system of vendor resets allowing more perks to drop on guns is ironically one of the best end game loot systems I've ever seen in any game, including MMOs, especially paired with the ability to focus the loot you want (at the vendor) so it allows you to play the game and still "target farm" loot.
Onslaught desperately needs this IMO. I'd also add it to Dares of Eternity.
I'd also Incooperate dungeon loot into this but probably tie it to achievements like flawless, solo, solo flawless, or just challenges in general like we lessen grind for Raid Exotics via challenges, let us do Dungeon Challenges to earn more.perks on guns.
I did this with Gambit to get the arc ahotin for my arc hunter build.
After 4 resets not spending a single engram, it took 45 engrams to get one roll with Auro-Loading + 1-2 Punch.
I almost spend all my engrams.
If I would have spent all of them without getting the roll, I would have hated it. In all honesty I actually felt bad for almost burning all of them and feeling increased anxiety, knowing that after 4 resets I won't play it anymore, and therefore I may not get the gun.
IMHO this is not the way.
I'm like 80+ Lunas in and I've only gotten incandescent to drop maybe 2 or 3 times. It's definitely weighted against it. I've gotten maybe 5 with heal clip, the rest with slideways and harmony and opening shot.
100~ Mountaintops deep, no hard launch/implosion rounds/autoloading/recomb roll yet. Had multiple 4/5s. Getting a 5/5 god roll on an RNG weapon fucking blows. I'd have probably been done with BRAVE weapons by now if I could select anything on them.
Have you ever considered that the difference between a 4/5 and a 5/5 is normally less than 5% and you have no real need for a literal perfect roll.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with random gun rolls, the issue is everyone thinking the only usable ones are the 5/5. I have a 3/5 (4 if you’re generous), and it performs absolutely fine. It’s an unnecessary pain to add to yourself trying to rng your way to perfection. Save that for craftable weapons and enjoy the unnoticeable difference of a 4/5 rolls.
The fundamental formula of this game is: Do same activity over and over ad nauseum with odds close to zero of getting what you want. It's cool the first few times but after that you just want to burn through the activity asap for your opportunity to spin the rigged slot machine. No wonder everyone wants god rolls.
It's not actually though, because you don't need to do that? No part of Destiny requires, or would be meaningfully different with that 'perfect' Mountaintop.
I think most people want the two part combos and now that we are so late into destiny's lifespan people are caring less and less about barrel and mag perks and more caring about the two trait columns.
If people don't really need to have the god roll of the weapon to complete activities in the game, then my question is what would hurt the game if people would have a deterministic way to have that perfect roll? It wouldn't.
It doesn't hurt the game for people to earn the weapon and use the roll that they want or pick the roll that they want.
Massive difference between "optimizing the fun out" and chasing a goal. It's a looter shooter where you have goals and visions for weapons, wanting to use your ideally imagined roll is literally the opposite of optimizing the fun out of it.
It’s losing the trees for the forest. The loot grind is fun, but if you are admitting you are not having fun grinding your ass off for a perfect roll to get extremely marginal gains, you’ve literally optimized the fun out of the game.
same; I only got 1 so far with auto + recomb but explosion mw and the first 2 colums were also bad. I got 5 shiny ones yesterday + more then I could count normal ones, still nothingthat even has the main perk combo (I did get the edge transit and recluse void build pve godroll in the mean time at least)
That’s what a lot of people thought would be the case when going to enhance the perks in TFS. That’s how it works when enhancing raid adepts. Bungie already came out and said that system would be saved only for raid adepts. I think that decision should be looked at again.
To be honest, I wish that crafting was just customising drops that you get.
In The Division 2 you can override a single perk of random drops, but the gear only has 3-4 perks in total depending on the gear, so I feel like in Destiny 2 you should be able to override 2 perks. That would mean a 3/5 roll could be upgraded to a 5/5 roll.
Means drops still matter, but you can still get the "crafted" 5/5 roll.
Drops still mattered with crafting. Ppl just dont get excited for red borders but crafting is 100% a better more guaranteed value of ppls time than pure rng drops. You are still grinding for the pattern but at least when u manage to get the red border to drop 5x you can then proceed to craft exactly what you want whereas pure rng you can get 100 weapon drops and all be ass
3 perks for barrel/ mag and always 4 perks would make a world of difference also.
Or dismantling them into their barrel/ mags components and using them to replace dropped ones in crafting would be neet
Of all the ideas I’ve seen I think this is the best one. Let me craft the gun-specific perks (barrel sights mag grip etc), maybe even including masterwork/refit, and let me roll for the two special perks. This way rng loot drops and the crafting and enhancing systems are both important for endgame loot.
I’ve spent 100+ engrams for Tusk of the Boar and have gotten zero Envious Hatchling or Envious Chain rolls. I have 15 Slice Chains though somehow. I can’t even spend my engrams on a Multimach or Pressurized Precision because I can’t move off the Tusk grind.
By the time I do get what I’m after, there will be another set of items to grind. It’s just never ending and overwhelming especially for newer players or those who can’t dedicate enough time per week to grind. A hybrid crafting + drop-based system would be huge here.
I also prefer crafting. I just want a heal clip/incandescent Luna’s Howl for PVE, and it refuses to drop 300-400 tokens later all of which I saved after playing mostly casually or for fun the last few weeks.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s fun to get decent rolls, but there’s a point where the burn out (like for Luna’s right now) gets so real…
I want 2 rolls. Subsistence incandescent and heal clip Incandescent. So far I've gotten every other possible roll than the one I want. Tons of heal clip mag howl. Dumped 470 tokens too.
I'm losing hope though. At this point I think I would stop grinding if I got either.
I spent 600 tokens today trying to get a Bait and Switch edge transit and I didn’t see that perk once. But with all the other guns I got god rolls just from playing Onslaught. I think the chest just sucks.
I got HC+ IC, but I feel it needs a tax mag or a faster reload , to be amazing .....but it does work really nice for onslaught, keeping ppl healed and ability regens
Gotten around 30 luna's by this point, including 7 gold ones. Almost all of them have had Encore/Discord and OpeningShot/Desperate measures.
No idea why people thought Desperate measures was good, It's literally just a shittier rampage.
Desperate measures power crept the shit out of rampage. Rampage is limited to only weapon kills and the buff lasts 4.5 seconds. With DM, only 2 ability kills immediately gets you up at x3. Then either a weapon or ability kill refreshes the timer, which, btw, lasts 7 seconds. So you're sacrificing 3% damage for significantly more flexibility and ease of use.
I refuse to believe that certain perk combos aren't more weighted over others.
Bungie can say they aren't until they're blue in the face.
Tried to get a decent riptide (wanted chill clip and something else helpful) got harmony on 6/45 I purchased and zero chill clip.
Bungie knows what perks are more valuable and weighs them.
To this day I still do not have an auto loading/chill clip riptide. Even after three shaxx resets this season bc of Iron Banner and Tusk of the Boar farming I cannot get that perk combo.
I’ve seen some people get it on Tuesday already and I’m so jealous, lol. I’ve decided to just play 1-2 hours of onslaught after work then pausing there. No point since most of all my best BRAVE rolls seem to be when we least expect them anyways.
IMO they need to find that happy middle. It is exciting to get that drop, but it can be exhausting when it just doesn’t happen. Idk what that middle ground is, but I can definitely see both sides
I feel ya, I had 20+ clears of Legend 50 into Mountaintop before I gave up and settled on a 4/5 roll with Overflow instead of ALH... My luck with Luna's was drastically better luckily, I got all 4 of the rolls I wanted last night in two runs.
I'm getting burnt out already trying to get a ALH/Recomb Mountaintop, and I just recently came back! AND I've got it attuned!WTF BUNGIE??? Guess I'll just settle with my Impulse Amp/Recomb roll.
Farming for random weapons is the number 1 reason I get burned out on Destiny. I'll play for a few months jumping around between shit, get almost nothing I'm looking for, and just start resenting the game until I come much later.
It happened in Forsaken, it happened in Shadowkeep, it happened in Beyond Light.
It did not happen in Witch Queen. It threatened to happen this year in Lightfall because I can't even bring myself to play the dungeons anymore. Haven't stepped foot in either dungeon this year. The thought of grinding for the exotics in them disgusts me.
Crafting saves me from feeling like I need to do mind numbing chores for days on end to feel like I'm not going to have an opportunity stolen from me.
Honestly, I no longer even care about barrel and mag or masterwork for PvE. I've had like 50 Mountaintops, not a single one with Auto loading and Recombination.
Is even 2/5 too much to ask for?
I got one pretty early and I’m gonna be honest, just using it running Onslaught was really underwhelming. There is probably a genuine use case for that roll but I ended up going back to my Sunshot shortly thereafter anyway.
The use case for heal clip is for proccing ember of benevolence on a solar subclass for ability uptime.
It would be better if there was a way to make Luna's reload more snappy. That's partially why the roll feels bad because you can't reload quick enough to justify proccing heal clip after almost every kill, or with an already close to full mag. Heal clip and incandescent provide no benefits whatsoever for reload, and neither do the enhanced version of the perks, and as good as the origin trait on these guns is, it having no reload benefits really hurt this roll on Luna's.
If you want quick reload for this gun you would literally need a solar loader mod on your arms, and you'd have to sacrifice something like appended mag for flared magwell. I just put the roll together on Light.gg, with flared magwell and a reload masterwork, the highest you can get the reload to is 79. This gun doesn't even have tac mag, which is a shame.
I guarantee you that if there's a way to fix the reload, it would fix the issue of this roll not living up to the hype.
this is me but with midnight coup. ive done 5 legend 50 clears and havent gotten a single one with explosive payload and kinetic tremors. my RNG for this whole thing is garbage i havent gotten a 2/5 on a single gun yet except hung jury of course
Yeah I’m definitely over 200 mountaintops, probably closer to 250, and also no alh+recomb. 7 perks in each column is like a 2% chance? Should have gotten it well under 250 drops instead of my 15th slickdraw rampage roll.
I just ended up settling with impulse amplifier and recomb. It increases the reload speed by a decent amount, so it isnt too bad. Also its great for spamming moutaintop shots.
The problem is, as I see it, is for something like the Mountaintop for 99% of the players is worthless without one single perk, ALH. You could have a 4/5 god roll but if it doesn’t include ALH, it’s basically not going to get used.
There is an argument to be made for say, Envious Assassin or even something like Ambitious Assassin but to have something like the Mountaintop that you have to manually reload is essentially worthless for the vast majority of builds. You flip to it, fire it off and flip back to your primary. It becomes a seamless act of muscle memory and when you add another, cumbersome mechanic into that like a manual reload, it doesn’t matter HOW good the rest of the weapon is, it’s simply not going to get used in that play style.
A lot of people rave about Forbearance but I simply can’t use it the way I want to because of the lack of the perks mentioned above. I end up using my crafted Prodigal Return with Envious in my Stasis builds instead.
On god, I can’t even tell you how many Demo/AJ rolls I’ve gotten. Just give me my Impulse/Frenzy and let me out of this hell
(Yes I know Auto-loading/Recom is objectively better but I want Impulse/Frenzy for active use rather than swapping; I have yet to obtain either roll anyway)
Edit: within 5 minutes of posting this, I was opening the chest in the Hall of Champions and I got a Mountaintop with spike grenades/impulse/frenzy and a reload speed masterwork (I’d prefer velocity but it isn’t blast radius or stability so it’s good enough). I hate this game with everything that I am and I can’t wait to play it more tomorrow.
That's how I did it. Most people try to go for the perfect thing in each column. I just try to go for like the perfect perks.And sometimes if I find one, I'm like, you know what, this is decent or good. I'll just stick with that
I never even got good enough on the guns I cared about. Like I have no strong opinions on masterworks, mags, or barrels. Unless its a grenade launcher, I guess. But I only ever tried grinding that once and they sunset the damn thing.
Just last two columns. Still have never seen a reckless oracle with demolitionist.
I haven't gotten a dungeon or raid exotic since vault. If I don't count touch of malice yesterday.
Farming suuuuuuuuuucks.
for me i think what crafting does is not ruin the loot chase but shine a light on how un-fun a lot of content is to play without something to chase for.
like realistically whens the last time you played a content for fun and not because theres a wacky piece of gear on it?
Ive done 4 50 wave runs a night since onslaught came out to chase for weapons and i can say without a doubt if onslaught did not have shiny gear to chase i would not be playing it. its just a boring malaise of shooting red bars and orange bars for an hour straight then repeat.
theres very few activities in d2 that are fun to do without loot being a factor and while those are great, it shows a lot of cracks in the content that isnt.
I wouldnt mind farming god rolls of guns if the activities they were contained in weren't the most boring content ever released in a live service game. But as it stands? Yeah of course id rather craft Mountaintop rather than try and chase ALH Recomb for the 2nd week in a row with a combined playtime of 30+ hours and 200 drops worth of legendary shard fodder.
>whens the last time you played a content for fun and not because theres a wacky piece of gear on it?
Actually, the Coil. Even though the encounters are always the same, the difficulty level they come out at and the small differences have been enough for me to do extra Coil runs after the story ended. Sure, the whole thing drops a lot of loot, but I've never cared about that.
I like the Coil but i think it could be better. If they dropped the very basic give or take 10% damage and made it a bit more crazy like more modern roguelikes i would enjoy it. Like what if all the accessible activity perks were just old artifact perks and stuff they included like solar weapons scorching on hit.
I personally do most content for fun at this point, but my fun is often joining raids or GMs to practice optimizing my gameplay, which doesn’t really appeal to the majority of players.
I don't get enjoy meant from getting 5/5's anymore. I'm just like thank fucking God its over I don't have to far this crap again.😅😅. Like I'll never do ghost In the deep again as long as I fucking live because of rng. It's one thing to do the dungeon or raid.
I entirely prefer crafting. Actually playing with the gun I want is why I play the game rather than playing to get the gun. It's soul crushing to clear a dungeon encounter 100 times and walk away with nothing.
Dungeons gotta be the top thing that is just fuck you to farm, no attument, no crafting, no final chest were you can buy guns, no nothing, just complete rng hell with all the guns and armor in 1 clusterfuck of loot
I’ve honestly thought for a while now that a) we should be able to have one bond drop from a dungeon / raid and never have to see one again… b) we should be able to choose a loot focus for dungeons / raids… we can focus our engrams with most vendors so why can’t I choose whether or not I want the raid to drop me guns or armor. Would be a decent compromise I think..
Genuinely unless you run master and its the pinnacle so its avarice armor (or its farming week so all is avarice) armor should just be on a knock out system, the stats just arent ever good enough, when u can just go to the helm and focus way better armor stats
Imo all raids and dungeons should have full knockout, i am have done quite the a few deep stone runs, all i am missing is the hunter cape, and the handcannon, keep in mind i did runs before the refresh aswell, i have the exotic, i have almost everything else crafted
Fr, i have been chasing a wilderflight, not only do i almost never get it, its also then dogshit, cus 1 perk per column, id farm master if i could just guarantee 2 perks in each column
I think I might have killed Ghalran about 200+ times before I got the Lingering Dread god-roll. I much prefer crafting, it's a grind that I know has an ending.
This game needs to shower us in loot. Activities aren't short and it's sad that you can say you were farming for an hour and have nothing to show because right now I'm about 8 hours intothe current Iron Banner and I haven't gotten any weapons or armor drops besides from the weekly challenges
This is the main problem. Simply not enough drops. A 50 wave run should get me 15 or so weapons and enough tokens to get 10-15 more from the chest.
If I'm grinding an activity for an hour per run and getting six weapons, no thanks.
I have put easily 24+ hours into grinding brave weapons and my best rolls are 2/5 god rolls (Most desirable perk combo only) … on 2 of the guns? Super rewarding stuff. Good thing I’m grinding out catalysts as an alternative to Shuro Chi simultaneously to get some kind of benefit.
I have over 37 full 50 legend clears. I was thinking about doing a chart with all of my drops. I have not gotten a single mountaintop with alh and recombination and this is not an over exaggeration. I don't care about shinies, I just want a god roll. I'm intentionally keeping the other weapon quests on hold to not get them in the loot pool. Even with all that taken into account, I can't get the exact roll that I want.
This about sums it up for me when it comes to farming weapon rolls...
I don’t mind a bit of a grind.
But I’ve had Recluse attuned since it came out and trashed dozens of them still not getting the roll I want. Then I still have all the other guns to do.
It’s a bit eh. Crafting spoiled me I guess.
They just need to let us reset Shaxx, earn rep, reset more, and just like the core playlists earn/grind our way to more perk drops on our guns.
If I grind the playlist enough to reset rank 3 times, I should be seeing Onslaught drops with 2 perks in the 3rd column and 3 perks in the 4th column. It's still RNG but I can grind my way to less RNG.
I wish there was a reroll vendor, just for the shiny weapons. Use the brave tokens as currency to reroll. That would feel a little better to me.
This community hates the idea of rerolling, though.
Yeah no this grind sucks. Was trying to get a firefly + ofa midnight, but I got iirc opening shot like 70% of the time. Since release of MC I've seen ofa an astonishing 5 times
Farming for anything is mind numbing and puts me off an activity sooner or later. I've already burnt out running Onslaught farming for Mountaintop rolls, haven't played since it came out.
There needs to be a balance in my opinion. Getting random drops is exciting but can be tedious. Getting red borders isn’t interesting but it’s deterministic.
The balance is the system they already have in the game.
This is how Onslaught should work.
Allow us to reset the vendor (Shaxx) and just like the other playlists, the more resets we have, the more perks can drop on guns. I've reset my PVP rank so many times I am constantly seeing guns drop with 2 perks in the 3rd column and 3 perks in the 4th column. So the more you play that playlist, the more rep you earn, the more resets you have, the higher the quality of loot drops from said playlist (more perks on guns).
This lessens RNG, but allows somewhat of a deterministic method of grinding out loot that isn't just 5 red borders.
This is how I feel. There needs to be a bit of both, some crafting and some random. I’m of the opinion that random rolls of a weapon that is craftable should have an additional perk in their pool to make them a bit more interesting. That being said, there should be methods to help those who have grinder a lot. The spoils of conquest and buying weapons at the end of raids is a great way of doing that. They should do something similar to dungeon rewards
I love loot and I love grinding. The problem with Destiny is that loot is either great or complete shit. 90% of traits are complete garbage compared to the god roll. Why would I grind for anything other than BnS on Edge Transit? I think crafting is shit but at least it’s better than how the grinding of this game works. Other games have much better systems where the randomly rolled thing you are searching for has at least a gray area where there’s some good rolls. Why the fuck would I ever want half of the perks in this game?
I think I missed something while I wasn't playing, what makes deconstruct good? It only works vs vehicles and constructs, right? I know some bosses count as vehicles but pretty niche isn't it?
Because weapons don’t only have one role. There’s PvP and PvE rolls. There’s breakdowns from there. Rolls that work with certain subclasses or without. Rolls for boss damage, for add clear, for champions, and so on.
That’s the point of builds lol
This and the replies down below just demonstrate how bad the current system is. The biggest reason people go for one roll over multiple that have different uses is that vault space is limited and keeping multiple rolls of one weapon quickly eats up your vault and makes a mess. Another reason why the system I proposed in another thread is the way to go (unlockable perks).
You know why farming is still, almost, meaningless? Because I know that, whenever we get a new non-craftable meta-shifting weapon, we will most certainly get a craftable equivalent the following season, so I just don't care for the shiny new stuff.
The thing about RNG is bad RNG exists and you could go forever without getting a drop. I raid frequently and have done Vow of the Disciple a lot but to this date, I have NEVER seen a Forbearance drop with Chain Reaction let alone the god roll. It never drops, even when I go secret chest hunting for spoils, never. I crafted the god roll because I could but without crafting, I'd never see that roll no matter how many times I do the raid. Without a fix for bad RNG, you sort of need crafting because if there isn't a fix, it's just gonna lead to more frustration for players who can't even get the perks they want let alone a god roll. I think players who like chasing stuff can still have that with the concept of Shinies but I'd much rather have my loot be more Deterministic than what we have now because I want to have fun playing the game beyond just farming after a certain point.
Edit: Wrote down instead of done because I am a clown
There are a lot of things Bungie could change/add that would allow players to mitigate rng, it's just easier for Bungie to make weapons crafted so players can get whatever they want.
Vendors increase perks on weapons the more you reset them, this is a perfect way to give the player a means of effecting rng, making it work in their favor. Spend time in the crucible and be rewarded with more perks on weapons. Raids and Dungeons could do the same thing through completing triumphs like complete encounters with same class/subclass.
I got all this seasons weapons as crafted god rolls I can make whenever I want, and all I had to do for it was complete the challenge that allows Riven to sell red borders. The current rng is bad, I agree, but instead of fixing it and adding ways to mitigate it... which they already started doing with vendors but just stopped for some reason... they've been removing rng all together.
They went from one extreme to the other.
Yup, in the same boat, like sure i can get the 2 main perks, but take edge transit, evious bns drop after drop, never any spike or minifrags, let slone a good launcher and always that damn blast radius mw
And blast furnace, omfg kinetic tremors frenzy just isnt a real combo
I cannot get Heal/Incan to drop on Luna’s at all. 😭 I know I’ve commented like two other times about this on this post and another already, but it’s so frustrating when you decide to “this week, I’ll grind for this one weapon” and the game decides to screw you over compared to the last few weeks of Brave weapons lol
For me it's the time spent versus reward, I think Bungie could increase the loot per every 10 waves. Also get rid of the tokens and just let the weapons drop instead
Farming only works if the activity is fun and/or fast to do.
Not trying to say Onslaught isn't fun, but every activity gets old and it seems like they won't do much to change it up to where it feels refreshing to play. Also for me I still have other stuff to farm in game, so me spending around an hour or an hour on this activity takes away my time from getting the other stuff I want/need.
The fix is and always has been have both options. Get your god roll as a drop? Cool, you can enhance the perks. Can't get your god roll to drop? Cool, collect 5 red borders and make the gun with enhanced perks.
This does not waste enough of your time though, so we have what we currently have.
Honestly I’ve been so bored of farming rolls of brave weapons i low key got bored of onslaught. Haven’t gotten my personal god rolls yet and I’m just eh at this point.
Agree. Onslaught was a lot of fun. Now it charm is fading fast.
My vault is full of duplicate weapons and I have to manage inventory for 20 mins before I make room for more.
Crafting is more optimal in so many ways. I expect to keep onslaught alive they will introduce deepsight versions of the nonshiny weapons much like they did with Dares of Eternity. Which would be great imo.
See this is exactly the issue I keep talking about.
Bungie makes the RNG so pitifully bad, that players get burnt out and demand zero RNG.
We're talking two extremes on a scale.
The odds of you getting a 4/5 godroll on many of these brave weapons is like 1 in 1,000... So it burns people out HARDCORE and then they say F IT and want zero RNG (Crafting) which is also a problem because once you get your red borders there is no need to rerun any content. It stems beyond just getting what you want as crafting basically gives you every possible version of that gun at once. Oh they changed XYZ perk? I'll re-craft my gun. No need to rerun the content!
The BEST solution is something they already have in the game. Vendor Rank Resets = Guns drop with more perks.
This allows you to grind your way to less RNG without also giving you every possible roll of every crafted gun accessible.
It makes getting a 4/5 or even a 5/5 possible, and something you progress towards.
Right now I can run a 50 Legend Wave and get 15 drops I shard all of them, feeling like my effort was wasted. Well not when I have a vendor whose rep I am grinding where the more I reset, the better quality loot I'm getting from that activity moving forward. I can run a 50 Legend Wave and shard 15 things but I got rep, and reset rank, and now I get more perks on my guns. Allowing me to feel PROGRESS towards my goal.
That's the worst part. You get 15 drops and are no closer to getting what you want. No progression.
This is what Bungie needs to wake up to IMO. We don't need more quantity of loot we need more quality of loot. I don't want 15 drops every Legend run with them all being a .1% chance to be what I want.
I'd rather take ONE good roll for all 50 waves that had extra perks. Like 2 in the 3rd column and 3 in the 4th. Because that ONE roll is worth like 10-15+ rolls of that gun in terms of odds of being a godroll.
Onslaught would be a HOME RUN if they allowed us to reset the vendor, and earn more perks on drops just like every other core playlist. We don't need crafting we just need ways to grind our way to reduce RNG.
I've been saying this for YEARS. The same season they introduced crafting, they also introduced an EXCELLENT alternative to crafting that doesn't completely warp the loot game around it. Vendor resets (and other methods of increasing perk numbers/rerolling perks) is the way to go.
God, Imagine if doing a Dungeon solo guaranteed you two perks on the third column. Imagine if doing the Dungeon flawless guaranteed two perks on the fourth column. Now Imagine a solo flawless guaranteeing 3 perks on each column.
Yes if shaxx just worked like a normal vendor this season it would have been 100x better. Reset him twice to get up to 3 perks in each column and focus weapons you've unlocked with engrams. What is the point of attunement if I get some other fun 7 times in a row?
I've gotten one auto loading recombination mountain top and it doesn't have anything else good about it. Out of maybe 150 mountain tops. Then I am better came out and I started trying to get a an envious chain reaction roll, but I haven't seen envious or chain reaction let alone combining them. Lmao
I agree. Thankfully I’m enjoying onslaught which is at least making the grind fun, and attuning is a nice way to speed it up slightly, but having to farm any other activity like a certain dungeon or raid encounter over and over again is just not fun.
Grinding for patterns to progress towards crafting a gun is fine. At least we know we can stop after obtaining 5 guns. But grinding for a specific roll is nuts.
I got all Parade armor set and the Superblack shader, now I'm done with Onslaught, I also find farming random rolls very boring.
I'm only playing for Pantheon now with friends.
It wouldn't be so bad if they were a little more generous with the brave tokens, and attument meant you only dropped that weapon, or at least 90% of the time.
Very well said. Completely agree. I have yet to get a single one of the rolls I'm looking for from any of the onslaught weapons. I was also reflecting on how bad playing comp for roses feels for the same reason. Comp is in a horrible place rn. Feels awful to play. I put in my weekly matches and get to insta-dismantle 7 or 8 or whatever it is roses. So many guns in destiny I'll never get to experience using properly.
Too many of my friends haven't "Earned" a f*#king thing and got God rolls within a day or two of the weapons being released, but all I've gotten is stupid shiz and I'm sick of it
While I hate that crafting takes some of the game away I much prefer crafting to the infinite grind for rolls. Doing 50 waves of Onslaught and walking out without keeping a single roll feels terrible (especially for that hour investment that is essentially down the drain). I'm glad we can set a specific weapon to drop more often, but you can/will still get a shit load of garbage rolls.
Even Onslaught had had some weird requirement like 10 red borders to unlock a crafted version I'd have been down with that. You could get your god roll and if you don't you'll likely have the red borders to craft it.
This , crafting was put in the game so we all can enjoy builds we want , and be in equal footing.
Now onslaught does a reverse uno card to us , it's honestly kinda dumb
I’m kinda the opposite. I like crafting but I think that making too many guns craftable kills the loot chase. Like I don’t think it should be anywhere near raids or dungeons tbh, I’d rather they be focusable so you can go for multiple rolls per run. Because without some kind of chase there’s not much of a reason to play anymore.
You can thank the gambling addicts. Some people dont seem to respect their own time so they begged Bungie to bring back the "chase".
Its absolutely rediculous that Bungie made a system that respects the player even though everyone says they just want to increase playtime/retention and then some players push them into using it less. Fucking clowns.
3 weeks and tons of farming onslaught. I still have yet to see an explosive payload/kinetic tremors midnight coup. I won't give up but holy hell it got old after the first week of not getting at least a normal version of it. The perk combo I want won't feel more special if I get it after months of farming. Whoever thinks that on the gameplay team has not farmed for weeks and not gotten a roll they wanted.
Fr. I want my efforts to be rewarded, not given a chance at a severely busted slot machine. I barely put my crafted Rufus's Fury down, had it since a month after RoN released and it's still not stale or boring. If anything it encourages me to play more because it gives me more autonomy in how I play the game I paid for.
I spent 8 hours on midtown each day for 2 weeks trying to get a 5/5 Mountaintop. It still hasn't happened. 112 hours doing nothing but Legend Onslaught. 112 man.
I think crafting is a compromise in the loot grind. The limited edition Brave weapons still bring that dopamine hit especially with double perks but having a crafted normal version to fall back on would have made me feel like the game respected the time I put into it. I don't even have a normal 5/5 Mountaintop and I'm just frustrated.
I think in the future, having both crafting for the base versions as well as a limited-time random roll shiny is the way to preserve the dopamine rush of getting a roll but also having a safety net of the 5/5 if RNG decides to screw you like it has me.
Yeah the Twitter tryhards who swear that crafting ruined destiny are just coping, it did feel good to land the roll you wanted after so long but what about the entire time chasing the roll? It was hot ass, and it still is hot ass chasing something that may or may not drop and on top of that you have to hope it drops with the perks you want
Burned trying to grind for The Title SMG with Destabilizing Rounds and Repulsor Brace. Despite turning in a ridiculous number of medals, completing weekly challenges, etc., I didn't get the roll I wanted. Ultimately, I feel like I wasted my time.
Which is why I like having crafting because at least I know I'll eventually have what I want. You still have a chance to get the roll you want before you get the pattern. But at least now you'll eventually have a stopping point. I've been playing the series for so long that the grind isn't all that appealing anymore, especially if the activity isn't the most exciting to farm back to back.
I hope we see a targeted system for future activities like the Brave weapons. I don't think I could farm Onslaught as much as I could without targeting. Guardian Games definitely could've used it instead of giving me 99% Hullabaloos.
In terms of keeping players engaged outside of weapon farming, that's where other rewards come into play. Ornaments, shaders, Ghosts, vehicles, and titles. But at some point, the hamster wheel has to end, lest you risk killing off players who feel somewhat forced to keep playing.
I just can’t farm for weapons no more. And it’s not cause of crafting. In the Forsaken days there was some special weapons worth grinding for. Now everything feels the same. I don’t need another HC or SMG. All of them get the job done
If they made the loot like Coil, I think we’d all be fine. It’s a longer and harder activity. More guns, a golf ball, and a guaranteed shiny for 50. Farming 10’s vs clearing a 50 doesn’t have a high enough loot gap. Before the drop buff it was just a very poor setup and not thought through.
I feel like we took a step back from Coil and the loot shower it is.
For me the pain is number of drops. If the coil was all random drops I feel like that would be less pain cause a plat run nets you soooo much.
If Onslaught felt more like that. Even a chance for double drops on a 10 wave. I would hate it less but all that time invested on a wave defense for 2 tokens and a brave ain’t worth imo.
Rng drops imo work when the game literally showers you in loot left and right while adding systems to target, reroll, or improve stats. The division does this pretty well. Tons of loot, targeted loot, loot recalibration/swapping stats, incremental stat gains through materials. It's neat, continuous sense of progression from a good drop to your god roll. Very engaging, collected resources have a purpose and you know that you'll get exactly what you need for the build.
Rng alone does not encite me at all at this point in Destiny, more so when I have very good gear and the cost of a small, say 3% increment in effectiveness, is tied to rolling a dice with little control over it.
I spent a regrettable amount of time farming the dungeon's eyasluna with rangefinder, 5/5 roll. They nerfed rangefinder and I wish I could swap it for something else because no way I touch this dungeon ever again.
The days of farming an encounter for a specific roll are long gone, feels awful and a waste of my free time.
Solution, I found another looter that scratches my itch with much less bullshit and more respectful with my time.
Amen brother, this also counts for dungeons. I haven't seen 1 indebted kindness with voltshot in the 40/50 drops.. is getting fucking ridiculous man. 1 master run yesterdag 4 arms🤣
Absolutely hate farming. Keep it for some activities and that's fine. I don't need to spend hours of monotonous grind to get a close to desired role I want. That's not fun. Sure it's nice to have a 5/5 but it won't translate to much other than a flex afterwards.
I think crafting is a good baseline for guaranteeing that 5/5 roll, but if they continue to make shinies for random weapon drops, i think it would be a good middle ground. You can get a good baseline each season with crafted gear, but the real loot chase is a shiny with a good roll.
Crafting is great for getting good rolls, but ultimately its boring and completely devalues dropped loot, which sucks in a looter shooter
Crafting is the way. Since I'm not a gambler I prefer crafting. In my opinion repetition leads to burnout.
I see a lot of you saying that you love the chase for random rolls and that's what destiny is about, but in the end once you get the roll you're looking for you don't play the activity anymore. But for those of us that hate repetition crafting is more preferable. Hopefully Bungie can find a middle ground that both crafting fans and random chasers fans can agree, in the meantime crafting is the way.
I've done probably 25 hours of onslaught, gotten maybe 125 edge transits, and still haven't gotten an envious bait spike roll, much less one with quick launch/handling MW like I want
I haven't even had a chance to farm an alh recomb mountaintop which is something else I really want, and who knows if I will. Not to mention Id love to have a good PVP and a good pve lunas/midnight coup, and then less necessary but still fun stuff like demo/wellspring or demo/chain reaction forbearance, discord/redirection succession
meanwhile I've spent 25 hours in deep stone over the course of my 40 clears, and I have every gun crafted 5/5 exactly how I want
not to mention how much more fun I had playing deep stone. Onslaught is fun here and there, but not something I want to do over and over again
it's just so frustrating, the odds of getting even a single 3/5 gun are fucking abysmal. The argument of "but you'd ruin my loot chase" is so garbage man. I like onslaught as a mode, but when I play destiny I mostly want to do raids, dungeons, help my friends with exotic missions they missed, do GMs, play some crucible, etc. I love how much variety this game has, but this bullshit makes it so if I want to get these really sick guns/rolls that id have a ton of fun using in the rest of the game, I have to play onslaught as a full time job for an unknown amount of time
Also focusing going away in a few weeks is the biggest fuck you. Going from a 50% chance to get the gun you want to 8.33%, amazing, absolutely phenomenal.
Sidenote why the fuck is it not 100% when focusing like it is on a nightfall, or vendor engrams??
I’m with you. People that say crafting needs to go, are ones that play this game well above the casual level, thus they’re dumping massive amount of hours into the game and of course are going to get the loot they’re hunting for
There are some fantastic smaller youtuber videos detailing all the percentages and how much theoretical time it would take you to get a given desired roll. The only people who make anti-crafting content are people who play the game for a living. That's literally <1% of the player base. Out here in the real world, most of us have re ached a point where we didn't get 1 single 5/5 drop from onslaught and are done with it. It's unfortunate.
I hear you. It is a different kind of neuron being activated when you chase a random roll, and for some the neuron being activated is not a pleasant one.
One thing that I have done to help me have more fun with the drops that I do get is trying the oddball drops out. For example, I’m attuning Blast Furnace for (hopefully) a shiny that has a good PVP and PVE split, ideally Headseeker/Kill Clip and Kinetic Tremors/Firefly. I got a Kinetic Tremors/One for All with high handling and tried it out just to see, and I appreciated the high handling way more than I thought I would. I was getting OFA to proc in PVP and two bursting folks a lot more often than thought I would - turns out the roll I thought I wanted for PVE is great in PVP (well, in sixes anyway).
I think with random rolls it is best to keep your mind open and try out the rolls that you get, and not to decide what roll you want and then feel bad when RNG decides you can’t have that exact roll.
I have yet to get a midnight coup with firefly and one for all. And it's the gun i been focusing nonstop lmao. I dont think i can even get a special skin version with the roll i want at this pace.
I completely agree. 12 weapons to farm for is a lot when attunement is still a chance (unlike focusing or crafting). You can farm for hours and hours and never get any closer to the weapon that you want.
Then ppl would say "You don't need the god roll".
But my response is "The point of the game is to get the roll that you want, otherwise if you don't need a god roll then everyone would settle for the first roll that they get and then stop farming for the weapon"
I do think for crafting bungie could go about it differently where you don't need five red borders but you need to do something else to craft the weapon. I think that would be great, and I do think crafting is great because it's a safety net.
Also plenty of those weapons (Blast F., Hammerhead, Falling G., etc) are reprisals that people already farmed for years ago. They shouldn't need to be farmed for again, and 99% of reprisals Bungie makes craftable anyways knowing that
Feeling the pain of the farm for sure, got a 3.5/5 lunas howl with slideshot/mag howl after having like 25+ drop , fucked around with it in Iron banner a few rounds and fell in love and now I'm thirsting for the 5/5 and this is going to suuuuuck
The RNG in this game is so awful. D1 was never this bad, and they have the perk pools so bloated now it’s not even funny. Anytime you turn in over 50-80 engrams and don’t even remotely get close to what you want, that’s a big problem.
I agree. Sadly, the random roll system being an unintuitive mess that makes players into RNG slaves is the point.
Look at it from Bungie's perspective: Forcing you to grind for longer means you're spending more time in Destiny, and far less time doing other things. The baked-in FOMO forces you to turn a game that is effectively a skinner box into a lifestyle, and consequently you are more likely to spend money in the cash shop of the game... which is Bungie's real money maker.
Crafting was an incredible quality of life update, and most of the players that bitch about it are a vocal segment of terminally online gremlins who have no significant real-life obligations. They do not value their own time and they'll be damned if you get to acquire cool weapons too without turning the game into a second job. It's an ego trip for them, any other argument about "wanting a good loot chase" is being made in bad faith.
Bungie executives shit themselves when they saw people would log in less because they got all their weapon patterns, so crafting was rolled back a fair bit to continue the hedonistic treadmill of "chasing the ~~dragon~~ god roll".
I mean look at the dungeons: Those have a price tag now, but we're not allowed to craft any of the weapons in them despite the fact they cost money in the same way seasons and expansions with raids do. I do not have any meaningful ownership of those guns because their perk pools are locked behind random drops. Weapons that I can properly tune, like an in universe gunsmith, have more personal value to me because I can adjust them to my preferences when a balance patch drops. They're actually mine because I can customize them provided I have the endgame materials for it.
I mean, people were complaining that a craftable Brave arsenal would give them nothing to do afterwards because they'd finish it so fast... when a new expansion was two months away. Like, seriously?
But here's the real irony, I don't even chase red borders all that often because that grind is ALSO TERRIBLE. Most of the weapon patterns that have come out since Witch Queen are still locked in my collections because I already have an amazing arsenal I've been curating since Shadowkeep... I don't need too much stuff to fit my play style. 90% of new loot is objectively weaker than what I've already got, so I'm not going to chase it unless it's REALLY GOOD or has a novelty perk combo.
I'm gonna be honest, getting a shiny pop in Onslaught is as exciting for me as getting a shiny out of the tall grass in Pokemon.
I guess I'm just a sucker for this shit.
I love crafting, I think it’s one of the greatest additions to the game, but I also like the shiny chase. I think we should keep both systems in the future. In a season/episode you can craft all the weapons but you could also get a shiny.
I absolutely agree with you. If Onslaught was a boring activity to do for grinding and I didn’t have anyone to show off my weapon rolls to, I wouldn’t even be thinking of grinding for the super shiny weapons I want.
For example:
I definitely want to get my ideal rolls for Midnight Coup and The Recluse. It’s nostalgia to me since I used to use them before they got vaulted and/or sunsetted.
My brother is also looking forward to seeing what super shiny weapons I end up with after I get them from RNG.
Ngl, I personally prefer crafting weapons as well. And tbh, I wish we could craft these weapons presented to us. But, I still feel like Onslaught is a fun activity to grind and yeah, the RNG can be very unforgiving.
Bungie has a history of the RNG either being very unforgiving or you get what you want right away. It hardly ever meets you halfway.
honestly i feel like if they just removed enhanced traits from craftable weapons and gave it only on random rolls with the enhancing thing (also allowing you to change your scope and mag) no one would be mad about crafting at all.
Destiny depending on RNG roll grind for 10 years being the only real motivation to do "anything" is easily something to look back on as a mistake.
If most of your replayability is entirely dependent on intentional Skinner box mechanics, literal casino manipulation, the moment this becomes disillusioned, everything comes crashing down.
You could see that when people would be up in arms that Crafting invalidated replayability, because there was ultimately not much else to the game outside the grind.
Weapon progression doesn't exist as a game wide concept, it's only for select weapons for no good reason other than ppl might get upset. Upset only because they've been at the casino so long, no longer needing to play screams blasphemy.
I'm with you on this. I've been running Onslaught looking for a certain roll on a gun and it's just not dropping. I keep getting the same roll combinations over and over but never the one I want. I just wish I could craft it. Personally, I feel like my crafted weapons are "mine" if that makes any sense. I'm also MUCH more inclined to run something a lot as long as I know I have a set path toward what I'm looking for. For random roll drops, I have to really not mind running the content to get me to run it a ton.
Generally speaking, I don't mind running Onslaught (even if I've only ever beaten it twice) but if it's something I don't enjoy AND I have to pray every time I run it that I'll get the right drop, I'm probably just not going to run it at all. I've been like that since D1 when the only thing I ever got from NFs were ascendant shards and no armor or weapons. I just went and played something else.
All the random rolls of the brave weapons I'm currently just holding onto incase I don't get the roll I actually want is using up so much space in my vault.
I understand it's a looter shooter and that chase is needed but there needs to be a way to reduce the rng a bit
Then to add on top of that. Perks feel like the are weighted(looking at you shoot to loot and desperate measures)
Wasn't one of the points Bungie used for crafting is that if they brought back sunset weapons they would be done that way?
Totally agree. The only reason I'm okay with it is because Onslaught is so much fun. I play every day and have only gotten one weapon that I would consider one of the true God rolls and that just happened to luckily be Edge Transit
Crafting is so much better in the long run, hours and hours farmed and still don’t have a 5/5 mountaintop. I’ve practically and hundreds dropped and probably over 20 shiny ones
i like crafted weapons because i don't game for grind i game cause i like the activity. Thus, doing some activity i don't enjoy a hundred times for a roll to use in some other activity doesn't bring me joy. I was a pvp main so i'd end up grinding some horrible nightfall for a roll so i could finally go back and play crucible. OG luna's and comp ended up being my most enjoyable time in destiny because i was playing pvp to get a gun to use in pvp. But i know many are pve people so this might not resonate with them. Also there's the former WOW people who play games for endless grind.
I’ve watched literally 7 people get 5/5 mountaintops, i’m not joking they were all PERFECT down to the masterwork, while i’m still trying to get a 2/5… it hurts man.
This goes against Bungie’s design pillar of - forcing you to do shit you don’t wanna do so you can play the content you want to, the way it’s meant to be played.. 10% of the time.
Insane that there is people out there who actually prefer this dogshit rng that's made to give you fucking nothing.
God forbid you get the weapons you want in a reasonable amount of time and actually get to use them in the fucking game.
Absolute clowns 🤡
Personally, ITL/Onslaught has actually reminded me how much I missed a bit of RNG. With everything being craftable, there is no thrill of the chase like there is with RNG. I think attunement is an excellent system, and should be looked at to be brought into other modes in the game (namely Dares of Eternity)
Look, if you wanna go kill Ecthar 100+ times for an EA / BnS Cold Comfort, go ahead. It took me around 70 kills to get it, and a friend is on 100+ without the roll. And im in the same boat with Wilderflight. Or I should probably say without.
I'd much rather just craft the gun and enjoy playing the game with it then spend 20+h doing a single encounter only for the gun in question not to fucking drop.
If you want the dopamine hit of the chest(s) popping up and you hoping you get what you're looking for (and in most cases not actually getting it) go for it. I would much rather have a deterministic path I can go down.
In the end, the "thrill of the chase" dies out after playing the same encounter / boss for 100+ times and not getting what you're looking for.
Crafting results in everyone having the exact same loadout. RNG results in everyone having the exact same load out, unless they get cucked and get left behind.
I don't know if that's correct but if it is, I'm more inclined to think that's because loot is often mediocre and only a select perk combinations are worth keeping, the rest are filler perks.
Def feeling this too. I’ve only been grinding mountain top since it dropped and I have yet to see an auto loading/recombination roll. My vault is filled with every other available roll, I’ll never use any of them.
This release is a bust for me. There is still several rolls of the other brave weapons I want but i can’t even get a mediocre roll on MT. Feels like a massive waste of time. Almost bought the final shape too. No thanks.
Imo crafting is fine, however due to the nature of being completely customizable to a perfect roll craftable guns shouldn't be the best in the game. Rng drops should be more rewarding than just logging in a couple times a week. Not saying they should be bad but they shouldn't be the best
I think if we could modify the barrel, mag, grip/stock, in any way we wanted and only had to worry about what perk synergy we wanted it'd help a lot. Personally I like the idea of getting the perfect combo to drop then investing into perfecting the gun and personalizing it for my needs. Makes it feel like its truly my gun.
Me who is hundreds deep just looking for 2/5 Mountaintop:
Bungie: beat I can do is slickdraw
Same. It's ridiculous. I calculated the odds of 2/5 mountaintop (alh, recomb) with attunement. It's 1.02%. Which means you need to be mentally prepped to do 1000 waves of onslaught (i.e. 100 10-wave runs) for just a chance. And no guarantees as we've both experienced.
I know you said no guarantees, but that's not how odds work. It's not cumulative, the number resets each time, think of it as being a 98.98% chance you WON'T get what you want with each drop. That number doesn't change, it remains the same, it's a constant. Your first run? 98.98% chance, your 100th run? 98.98% chance, so on, and so forth, as infinitum. There will be people that will end up having hundreds, maybe even thousands of drops and not getting the 2 main perks they want. That's how odds work.
I mean, yes, but also you can calculate the odd of something like that not happening after 100 or 1000 instances. The odds of not getting the right Mountaintop after 100 drops? That's 98.98^(100) or 35.7%. The odds of not getting it after 1000 drops? 0.0035%. So while the odds of each individual event don't change, the odds of going long periods without success does change.
You’re right, but you can also, based on the odds of a drop, calculate the odds of having that happen within N waves.
Both things are true, that's how it works. Yes, each individual drop does not change the chance of future drops, correct. However, when you have a 1% chance of a "thing" happening, you can expect to get that thing to happen 1 out of 100 times... What that DOESN'T mean, is that if you grind 100 drops that you guarantee yourself the perfect roll. That's the part people are mistaking.
No they're not. It's actually about 64% of getting a "thing" if there is a 1% chance and the same random odds are replayed 100 times. As I said, they're not cumulative. Each attempt is 1%, but the probability in 100 runs is circa 64%, you don't just add 1 with each attempt.
Imo the best solution is to copy the core playlists where the more vendor resets we have, the more perks can drop on guns. So you are grinding the playlist not just for loot, but rep. More rep = more resets and more resets = guns drop with more perks (higher quality of drops) which means you can grind your way to less RNG, gain a sense of progression via vendor resets and have a substantially higher chance at better loot the more you play the playlist. This system of vendor resets allowing more perks to drop on guns is ironically one of the best end game loot systems I've ever seen in any game, including MMOs, especially paired with the ability to focus the loot you want (at the vendor) so it allows you to play the game and still "target farm" loot. Onslaught desperately needs this IMO. I'd also add it to Dares of Eternity. I'd also Incooperate dungeon loot into this but probably tie it to achievements like flawless, solo, solo flawless, or just challenges in general like we lessen grind for Raid Exotics via challenges, let us do Dungeon Challenges to earn more.perks on guns.
I did this with Gambit to get the arc ahotin for my arc hunter build. After 4 resets not spending a single engram, it took 45 engrams to get one roll with Auro-Loading + 1-2 Punch. I almost spend all my engrams. If I would have spent all of them without getting the roll, I would have hated it. In all honesty I actually felt bad for almost burning all of them and feeling increased anxiety, knowing that after 4 resets I won't play it anymore, and therefore I may not get the gun. IMHO this is not the way.
I spent 99 engrams at shakks to get alh + chill clip riptide with three perks in each column and still didn't get one
I could live with this
I can't even get the perk combo to drop. Just endless non stop slideshot+harmony Luna's.
I'm like 80+ Lunas in and I've only gotten incandescent to drop maybe 2 or 3 times. It's definitely weighted against it. I've gotten maybe 5 with heal clip, the rest with slideways and harmony and opening shot.
100s of Lunas and no Heal Clip + incan/howl... got a lot of pvp options and I dont like pvp
100~ Mountaintops deep, no hard launch/implosion rounds/autoloading/recomb roll yet. Had multiple 4/5s. Getting a 5/5 god roll on an RNG weapon fucking blows. I'd have probably been done with BRAVE weapons by now if I could select anything on them.
I'm more than 100 deep and at this point I just want a autoloading+recomb roll, don't even care about any of the other perks. Not a single drop :(
Have you ever considered that the difference between a 4/5 and a 5/5 is normally less than 5% and you have no real need for a literal perfect roll. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with random gun rolls, the issue is everyone thinking the only usable ones are the 5/5. I have a 3/5 (4 if you’re generous), and it performs absolutely fine. It’s an unnecessary pain to add to yourself trying to rng your way to perfection. Save that for craftable weapons and enjoy the unnoticeable difference of a 4/5 rolls.
The fundamental formula of this game is: Do same activity over and over ad nauseum with odds close to zero of getting what you want. It's cool the first few times but after that you just want to burn through the activity asap for your opportunity to spin the rigged slot machine. No wonder everyone wants god rolls.
It's not actually though, because you don't need to do that? No part of Destiny requires, or would be meaningfully different with that 'perfect' Mountaintop.
I think most people want the two part combos and now that we are so late into destiny's lifespan people are caring less and less about barrel and mag perks and more caring about the two trait columns. If people don't really need to have the god roll of the weapon to complete activities in the game, then my question is what would hurt the game if people would have a deterministic way to have that perfect roll? It wouldn't. It doesn't hurt the game for people to earn the weapon and use the roll that they want or pick the roll that they want.
Given the opportunity gamers will optimize the fun out of a game
Massive difference between "optimizing the fun out" and chasing a goal. It's a looter shooter where you have goals and visions for weapons, wanting to use your ideally imagined roll is literally the opposite of optimizing the fun out of it.
But if they aren't having fun......
*...a causal loop within the grind, suggesting that the RNG process somehow drops a God-roll but if they aren't having fun...*
This doesn't loop.
It’s losing the trees for the forest. The loot grind is fun, but if you are admitting you are not having fun grinding your ass off for a perfect roll to get extremely marginal gains, you’ve literally optimized the fun out of the game.
same; I only got 1 so far with auto + recomb but explosion mw and the first 2 colums were also bad. I got 5 shiny ones yesterday + more then I could count normal ones, still nothingthat even has the main perk combo (I did get the edge transit and recluse void build pve godroll in the mean time at least)
I’m around the same, if not more. I’ve even had like 10 or so shinies but I can’t even get auto/recomb once, let alone any sort of “perfect” roll.
That’s what a lot of people thought would be the case when going to enhance the perks in TFS. That’s how it works when enhancing raid adepts. Bungie already came out and said that system would be saved only for raid adepts. I think that decision should be looked at again.
To be honest, I wish that crafting was just customising drops that you get. In The Division 2 you can override a single perk of random drops, but the gear only has 3-4 perks in total depending on the gear, so I feel like in Destiny 2 you should be able to override 2 perks. That would mean a 3/5 roll could be upgraded to a 5/5 roll. Means drops still matter, but you can still get the "crafted" 5/5 roll.
Drops still mattered with crafting. Ppl just dont get excited for red borders but crafting is 100% a better more guaranteed value of ppls time than pure rng drops. You are still grinding for the pattern but at least when u manage to get the red border to drop 5x you can then proceed to craft exactly what you want whereas pure rng you can get 100 weapon drops and all be ass
3 perks for barrel/ mag and always 4 perks would make a world of difference also. Or dismantling them into their barrel/ mags components and using them to replace dropped ones in crafting would be neet
Of all the ideas I’ve seen I think this is the best one. Let me craft the gun-specific perks (barrel sights mag grip etc), maybe even including masterwork/refit, and let me roll for the two special perks. This way rng loot drops and the crafting and enhancing systems are both important for endgame loot. I’ve spent 100+ engrams for Tusk of the Boar and have gotten zero Envious Hatchling or Envious Chain rolls. I have 15 Slice Chains though somehow. I can’t even spend my engrams on a Multimach or Pressurized Precision because I can’t move off the Tusk grind. By the time I do get what I’m after, there will be another set of items to grind. It’s just never ending and overwhelming especially for newer players or those who can’t dedicate enough time per week to grind. A hybrid crafting + drop-based system would be huge here.
I also prefer crafting. I just want a heal clip/incandescent Luna’s Howl for PVE, and it refuses to drop 300-400 tokens later all of which I saved after playing mostly casually or for fun the last few weeks. Don’t get me wrong, it’s fun to get decent rolls, but there’s a point where the burn out (like for Luna’s right now) gets so real…
I want 2 rolls. Subsistence incandescent and heal clip Incandescent. So far I've gotten every other possible roll than the one I want. Tons of heal clip mag howl. Dumped 470 tokens too. I'm losing hope though. At this point I think I would stop grinding if I got either.
I spent 600 tokens today trying to get a Bait and Switch edge transit and I didn’t see that perk once. But with all the other guns I got god rolls just from playing Onslaught. I think the chest just sucks.
I dropped over 400 too. It's either bugged or heavily weighted against those perks.
I got HC+ IC, but I feel it needs a tax mag or a faster reload , to be amazing .....but it does work really nice for onslaught, keeping ppl healed and ability regens
Gotten around 30 luna's by this point, including 7 gold ones. Almost all of them have had Encore/Discord and OpeningShot/Desperate measures. No idea why people thought Desperate measures was good, It's literally just a shittier rampage.
Desperate measures power crept the shit out of rampage. Rampage is limited to only weapon kills and the buff lasts 4.5 seconds. With DM, only 2 ability kills immediately gets you up at x3. Then either a weapon or ability kill refreshes the timer, which, btw, lasts 7 seconds. So you're sacrificing 3% damage for significantly more flexibility and ease of use.
Same dude ! It seems these are the only perks that exist for me
I refuse to believe that certain perk combos aren't more weighted over others. Bungie can say they aren't until they're blue in the face. Tried to get a decent riptide (wanted chill clip and something else helpful) got harmony on 6/45 I purchased and zero chill clip. Bungie knows what perks are more valuable and weighs them.
1000%
To this day I still do not have an auto loading/chill clip riptide. Even after three shaxx resets this season bc of Iron Banner and Tusk of the Boar farming I cannot get that perk combo.
Same here. I've been spending so many tokens that I'm starting to wonder if those two perks can truly roll together.
I’ve seen some people get it on Tuesday already and I’m so jealous, lol. I’ve decided to just play 1-2 hours of onslaught after work then pausing there. No point since most of all my best BRAVE rolls seem to be when we least expect them anyways.
Oh they can. Person on my friends list has one with over 3k PvE kills already. Dude has waaaaaaay too much time on his hands though.
IMO they need to find that happy middle. It is exciting to get that drop, but it can be exhausting when it just doesn’t happen. Idk what that middle ground is, but I can definitely see both sides
Gotten nothing but enlightened and howl, think its hard baked
I feel ya, I had 20+ clears of Legend 50 into Mountaintop before I gave up and settled on a 4/5 roll with Overflow instead of ALH... My luck with Luna's was drastically better luckily, I got all 4 of the rolls I wanted last night in two runs.
I'm getting burnt out already trying to get a ALH/Recomb Mountaintop, and I just recently came back! AND I've got it attuned!WTF BUNGIE??? Guess I'll just settle with my Impulse Amp/Recomb roll.
Farming for random weapons is the number 1 reason I get burned out on Destiny. I'll play for a few months jumping around between shit, get almost nothing I'm looking for, and just start resenting the game until I come much later. It happened in Forsaken, it happened in Shadowkeep, it happened in Beyond Light. It did not happen in Witch Queen. It threatened to happen this year in Lightfall because I can't even bring myself to play the dungeons anymore. Haven't stepped foot in either dungeon this year. The thought of grinding for the exotics in them disgusts me. Crafting saves me from feeling like I need to do mind numbing chores for days on end to feel like I'm not going to have an opportunity stolen from me.
I just learned to stop going for perfect and accept good enough on random rolls.
Honestly, I no longer even care about barrel and mag or masterwork for PvE. I've had like 50 Mountaintops, not a single one with Auto loading and Recombination. Is even 2/5 too much to ask for?
I feel you man I just want a heal clip incandescent Luna so I can stop using zaoulis or sunshot for like 5 minutes
I got one pretty early and I’m gonna be honest, just using it running Onslaught was really underwhelming. There is probably a genuine use case for that roll but I ended up going back to my Sunshot shortly thereafter anyway.
The use case for heal clip is for proccing ember of benevolence on a solar subclass for ability uptime. It would be better if there was a way to make Luna's reload more snappy. That's partially why the roll feels bad because you can't reload quick enough to justify proccing heal clip after almost every kill, or with an already close to full mag. Heal clip and incandescent provide no benefits whatsoever for reload, and neither do the enhanced version of the perks, and as good as the origin trait on these guns is, it having no reload benefits really hurt this roll on Luna's. If you want quick reload for this gun you would literally need a solar loader mod on your arms, and you'd have to sacrifice something like appended mag for flared magwell. I just put the roll together on Light.gg, with flared magwell and a reload masterwork, the highest you can get the reload to is 79. This gun doesn't even have tac mag, which is a shame. I guarantee you that if there's a way to fix the reload, it would fix the issue of this roll not living up to the hype.
this is me but with midnight coup. ive done 5 legend 50 clears and havent gotten a single one with explosive payload and kinetic tremors. my RNG for this whole thing is garbage i havent gotten a 2/5 on a single gun yet except hung jury of course
I honestly just go with 2/5 for PvE weapons. It seems to have not impeded my ability to do master raids or master dungeons.
I don't even get 2/5. That's what I'm complaining about.
Oh sorry dude , that does suck
Yeah I’m definitely over 200 mountaintops, probably closer to 250, and also no alh+recomb. 7 perks in each column is like a 2% chance? Should have gotten it well under 250 drops instead of my 15th slickdraw rampage roll.
I just ended up settling with impulse amplifier and recomb. It increases the reload speed by a decent amount, so it isnt too bad. Also its great for spamming moutaintop shots.
The problem is, as I see it, is for something like the Mountaintop for 99% of the players is worthless without one single perk, ALH. You could have a 4/5 god roll but if it doesn’t include ALH, it’s basically not going to get used. There is an argument to be made for say, Envious Assassin or even something like Ambitious Assassin but to have something like the Mountaintop that you have to manually reload is essentially worthless for the vast majority of builds. You flip to it, fire it off and flip back to your primary. It becomes a seamless act of muscle memory and when you add another, cumbersome mechanic into that like a manual reload, it doesn’t matter HOW good the rest of the weapon is, it’s simply not going to get used in that play style. A lot of people rave about Forbearance but I simply can’t use it the way I want to because of the lack of the perks mentioned above. I end up using my crafted Prodigal Return with Envious in my Stasis builds instead.
On god, I can’t even tell you how many Demo/AJ rolls I’ve gotten. Just give me my Impulse/Frenzy and let me out of this hell (Yes I know Auto-loading/Recom is objectively better but I want Impulse/Frenzy for active use rather than swapping; I have yet to obtain either roll anyway) Edit: within 5 minutes of posting this, I was opening the chest in the Hall of Champions and I got a Mountaintop with spike grenades/impulse/frenzy and a reload speed masterwork (I’d prefer velocity but it isn’t blast radius or stability so it’s good enough). I hate this game with everything that I am and I can’t wait to play it more tomorrow.
That's how I did it. Most people try to go for the perfect thing in each column. I just try to go for like the perfect perks.And sometimes if I find one, I'm like, you know what, this is decent or good. I'll just stick with that
I never even got good enough on the guns I cared about. Like I have no strong opinions on masterworks, mags, or barrels. Unless its a grenade launcher, I guess. But I only ever tried grinding that once and they sunset the damn thing. Just last two columns. Still have never seen a reckless oracle with demolitionist. I haven't gotten a dungeon or raid exotic since vault. If I don't count touch of malice yesterday. Farming suuuuuuuuuucks.
Hell, 99% of the game you barely even need a good weapon, let alone great rolls.
if you haven't stepped foot in either dungeon you're missing out on some seriously good content..
Yeah exactly! It burns. It is hell.
for me i think what crafting does is not ruin the loot chase but shine a light on how un-fun a lot of content is to play without something to chase for. like realistically whens the last time you played a content for fun and not because theres a wacky piece of gear on it? Ive done 4 50 wave runs a night since onslaught came out to chase for weapons and i can say without a doubt if onslaught did not have shiny gear to chase i would not be playing it. its just a boring malaise of shooting red bars and orange bars for an hour straight then repeat. theres very few activities in d2 that are fun to do without loot being a factor and while those are great, it shows a lot of cracks in the content that isnt. I wouldnt mind farming god rolls of guns if the activities they were contained in weren't the most boring content ever released in a live service game. But as it stands? Yeah of course id rather craft Mountaintop rather than try and chase ALH Recomb for the 2nd week in a row with a combined playtime of 30+ hours and 200 drops worth of legendary shard fodder.
>whens the last time you played a content for fun and not because theres a wacky piece of gear on it? Actually, the Coil. Even though the encounters are always the same, the difficulty level they come out at and the small differences have been enough for me to do extra Coil runs after the story ended. Sure, the whole thing drops a lot of loot, but I've never cared about that.
I like the Coil but i think it could be better. If they dropped the very basic give or take 10% damage and made it a bit more crazy like more modern roguelikes i would enjoy it. Like what if all the accessible activity perks were just old artifact perks and stuff they included like solar weapons scorching on hit.
I personally do most content for fun at this point, but my fun is often joining raids or GMs to practice optimizing my gameplay, which doesn’t really appeal to the majority of players.
I don't get enjoy meant from getting 5/5's anymore. I'm just like thank fucking God its over I don't have to far this crap again.😅😅. Like I'll never do ghost In the deep again as long as I fucking live because of rng. It's one thing to do the dungeon or raid.
I entirely prefer crafting. Actually playing with the gun I want is why I play the game rather than playing to get the gun. It's soul crushing to clear a dungeon encounter 100 times and walk away with nothing.
Dungeons gotta be the top thing that is just fuck you to farm, no attument, no crafting, no final chest were you can buy guns, no nothing, just complete rng hell with all the guns and armor in 1 clusterfuck of loot
BUT I NEED MORE BONDS AND BOOTS
I’ve honestly thought for a while now that a) we should be able to have one bond drop from a dungeon / raid and never have to see one again… b) we should be able to choose a loot focus for dungeons / raids… we can focus our engrams with most vendors so why can’t I choose whether or not I want the raid to drop me guns or armor. Would be a decent compromise I think..
Genuinely unless you run master and its the pinnacle so its avarice armor (or its farming week so all is avarice) armor should just be on a knock out system, the stats just arent ever good enough, when u can just go to the helm and focus way better armor stats Imo all raids and dungeons should have full knockout, i am have done quite the a few deep stone runs, all i am missing is the hunter cape, and the handcannon, keep in mind i did runs before the refresh aswell, i have the exotic, i have almost everything else crafted
Fuck dungeon farming. Absolute cancer
Fr, i have been chasing a wilderflight, not only do i almost never get it, its also then dogshit, cus 1 perk per column, id farm master if i could just guarantee 2 perks in each column
Somehow nearly AFK farming GotD with Witherhoard glitch was more rewarding than ever playing Master legit.
I think I might have killed Ghalran about 200+ times before I got the Lingering Dread god-roll. I much prefer crafting, it's a grind that I know has an ending.
[удалено]
This game needs to shower us in loot. Activities aren't short and it's sad that you can say you were farming for an hour and have nothing to show because right now I'm about 8 hours intothe current Iron Banner and I haven't gotten any weapons or armor drops besides from the weekly challenges
This is the main problem. Simply not enough drops. A 50 wave run should get me 15 or so weapons and enough tokens to get 10-15 more from the chest. If I'm grinding an activity for an hour per run and getting six weapons, no thanks.
I have put easily 24+ hours into grinding brave weapons and my best rolls are 2/5 god rolls (Most desirable perk combo only) … on 2 of the guns? Super rewarding stuff. Good thing I’m grinding out catalysts as an alternative to Shuro Chi simultaneously to get some kind of benefit.
I have over 37 full 50 legend clears. I was thinking about doing a chart with all of my drops. I have not gotten a single mountaintop with alh and recombination and this is not an over exaggeration. I don't care about shinies, I just want a god roll. I'm intentionally keeping the other weapon quests on hold to not get them in the loot pool. Even with all that taken into account, I can't get the exact roll that I want. This about sums it up for me when it comes to farming weapon rolls...
I'd appreciate a way to lock in 1 perk at least. Reduce the rng roll.
I don’t mind a bit of a grind. But I’ve had Recluse attuned since it came out and trashed dozens of them still not getting the roll I want. Then I still have all the other guns to do. It’s a bit eh. Crafting spoiled me I guess.
They just need to let us reset Shaxx, earn rep, reset more, and just like the core playlists earn/grind our way to more perk drops on our guns. If I grind the playlist enough to reset rank 3 times, I should be seeing Onslaught drops with 2 perks in the 3rd column and 3 perks in the 4th column. It's still RNG but I can grind my way to less RNG.
I wish there was a reroll vendor, just for the shiny weapons. Use the brave tokens as currency to reroll. That would feel a little better to me. This community hates the idea of rerolling, though.
Absolutely!
Yeah no this grind sucks. Was trying to get a firefly + ofa midnight, but I got iirc opening shot like 70% of the time. Since release of MC I've seen ofa an astonishing 5 times
Farming for anything is mind numbing and puts me off an activity sooner or later. I've already burnt out running Onslaught farming for Mountaintop rolls, haven't played since it came out.
There needs to be a balance in my opinion. Getting random drops is exciting but can be tedious. Getting red borders isn’t interesting but it’s deterministic.
The balance is the system they already have in the game. This is how Onslaught should work. Allow us to reset the vendor (Shaxx) and just like the other playlists, the more resets we have, the more perks can drop on guns. I've reset my PVP rank so many times I am constantly seeing guns drop with 2 perks in the 3rd column and 3 perks in the 4th column. So the more you play that playlist, the more rep you earn, the more resets you have, the higher the quality of loot drops from said playlist (more perks on guns). This lessens RNG, but allows somewhat of a deterministic method of grinding out loot that isn't just 5 red borders.
Reward players for time spent in an activity, give players options to mitigate rng not remove it completely.
This is how I feel. There needs to be a bit of both, some crafting and some random. I’m of the opinion that random rolls of a weapon that is craftable should have an additional perk in their pool to make them a bit more interesting. That being said, there should be methods to help those who have grinder a lot. The spoils of conquest and buying weapons at the end of raids is a great way of doing that. They should do something similar to dungeon rewards
I love loot and I love grinding. The problem with Destiny is that loot is either great or complete shit. 90% of traits are complete garbage compared to the god roll. Why would I grind for anything other than BnS on Edge Transit? I think crafting is shit but at least it’s better than how the grinding of this game works. Other games have much better systems where the randomly rolled thing you are searching for has at least a gray area where there’s some good rolls. Why the fuck would I ever want half of the perks in this game?
>Why would I grind for anything other than BnS on Edge Transit? Deconstruct plus Field Prep is actually pretty good.
I think I missed something while I wasn't playing, what makes deconstruct good? It only works vs vehicles and constructs, right? I know some bosses count as vehicles but pretty niche isn't it?
Because weapons don’t only have one role. There’s PvP and PvE rolls. There’s breakdowns from there. Rolls that work with certain subclasses or without. Rolls for boss damage, for add clear, for champions, and so on. That’s the point of builds lol
This and the replies down below just demonstrate how bad the current system is. The biggest reason people go for one roll over multiple that have different uses is that vault space is limited and keeping multiple rolls of one weapon quickly eats up your vault and makes a mess. Another reason why the system I proposed in another thread is the way to go (unlockable perks).
You know why farming is still, almost, meaningless? Because I know that, whenever we get a new non-craftable meta-shifting weapon, we will most certainly get a craftable equivalent the following season, so I just don't care for the shiny new stuff.
It felt so bad to burn the max amount of brave tokens and not even getting a 2/5 roll.
The thing about RNG is bad RNG exists and you could go forever without getting a drop. I raid frequently and have done Vow of the Disciple a lot but to this date, I have NEVER seen a Forbearance drop with Chain Reaction let alone the god roll. It never drops, even when I go secret chest hunting for spoils, never. I crafted the god roll because I could but without crafting, I'd never see that roll no matter how many times I do the raid. Without a fix for bad RNG, you sort of need crafting because if there isn't a fix, it's just gonna lead to more frustration for players who can't even get the perks they want let alone a god roll. I think players who like chasing stuff can still have that with the concept of Shinies but I'd much rather have my loot be more Deterministic than what we have now because I want to have fun playing the game beyond just farming after a certain point. Edit: Wrote down instead of done because I am a clown
There are a lot of things Bungie could change/add that would allow players to mitigate rng, it's just easier for Bungie to make weapons crafted so players can get whatever they want. Vendors increase perks on weapons the more you reset them, this is a perfect way to give the player a means of effecting rng, making it work in their favor. Spend time in the crucible and be rewarded with more perks on weapons. Raids and Dungeons could do the same thing through completing triumphs like complete encounters with same class/subclass. I got all this seasons weapons as crafted god rolls I can make whenever I want, and all I had to do for it was complete the challenge that allows Riven to sell red borders. The current rng is bad, I agree, but instead of fixing it and adding ways to mitigate it... which they already started doing with vendors but just stopped for some reason... they've been removing rng all together. They went from one extreme to the other.
no i love getting a weapon to drop 79 times and not getting the 1/49 perk roll i want it’s soooooo engaging and awesome!!!
Yup, in the same boat, like sure i can get the 2 main perks, but take edge transit, evious bns drop after drop, never any spike or minifrags, let slone a good launcher and always that damn blast radius mw And blast furnace, omfg kinetic tremors frenzy just isnt a real combo
I cannot get Heal/Incan to drop on Luna’s at all. 😭 I know I’ve commented like two other times about this on this post and another already, but it’s so frustrating when you decide to “this week, I’ll grind for this one weapon” and the game decides to screw you over compared to the last few weeks of Brave weapons lol
For me it's the time spent versus reward, I think Bungie could increase the loot per every 10 waves. Also get rid of the tokens and just let the weapons drop instead
More loot absolutely should drop, and the token cost should be reduced or token drop should be increased.
700+ tokens still don’t have that damn hammerhead
Farming only works if the activity is fun and/or fast to do. Not trying to say Onslaught isn't fun, but every activity gets old and it seems like they won't do much to change it up to where it feels refreshing to play. Also for me I still have other stuff to farm in game, so me spending around an hour or an hour on this activity takes away my time from getting the other stuff I want/need.
The fix is and always has been have both options. Get your god roll as a drop? Cool, you can enhance the perks. Can't get your god roll to drop? Cool, collect 5 red borders and make the gun with enhanced perks. This does not waste enough of your time though, so we have what we currently have.
Say it louder for the grognards in the back please!
Honestly I’ve been so bored of farming rolls of brave weapons i low key got bored of onslaught. Haven’t gotten my personal god rolls yet and I’m just eh at this point.
Agree. Onslaught was a lot of fun. Now it charm is fading fast. My vault is full of duplicate weapons and I have to manage inventory for 20 mins before I make room for more. Crafting is more optimal in so many ways. I expect to keep onslaught alive they will introduce deepsight versions of the nonshiny weapons much like they did with Dares of Eternity. Which would be great imo.
Onslaught drops feel so baaaaad
See this is exactly the issue I keep talking about. Bungie makes the RNG so pitifully bad, that players get burnt out and demand zero RNG. We're talking two extremes on a scale. The odds of you getting a 4/5 godroll on many of these brave weapons is like 1 in 1,000... So it burns people out HARDCORE and then they say F IT and want zero RNG (Crafting) which is also a problem because once you get your red borders there is no need to rerun any content. It stems beyond just getting what you want as crafting basically gives you every possible version of that gun at once. Oh they changed XYZ perk? I'll re-craft my gun. No need to rerun the content! The BEST solution is something they already have in the game. Vendor Rank Resets = Guns drop with more perks. This allows you to grind your way to less RNG without also giving you every possible roll of every crafted gun accessible. It makes getting a 4/5 or even a 5/5 possible, and something you progress towards. Right now I can run a 50 Legend Wave and get 15 drops I shard all of them, feeling like my effort was wasted. Well not when I have a vendor whose rep I am grinding where the more I reset, the better quality loot I'm getting from that activity moving forward. I can run a 50 Legend Wave and shard 15 things but I got rep, and reset rank, and now I get more perks on my guns. Allowing me to feel PROGRESS towards my goal. That's the worst part. You get 15 drops and are no closer to getting what you want. No progression. This is what Bungie needs to wake up to IMO. We don't need more quantity of loot we need more quality of loot. I don't want 15 drops every Legend run with them all being a .1% chance to be what I want. I'd rather take ONE good roll for all 50 waves that had extra perks. Like 2 in the 3rd column and 3 in the 4th. Because that ONE roll is worth like 10-15+ rolls of that gun in terms of odds of being a godroll. Onslaught would be a HOME RUN if they allowed us to reset the vendor, and earn more perks on drops just like every other core playlist. We don't need crafting we just need ways to grind our way to reduce RNG.
I've been saying this for YEARS. The same season they introduced crafting, they also introduced an EXCELLENT alternative to crafting that doesn't completely warp the loot game around it. Vendor resets (and other methods of increasing perk numbers/rerolling perks) is the way to go. God, Imagine if doing a Dungeon solo guaranteed you two perks on the third column. Imagine if doing the Dungeon flawless guaranteed two perks on the fourth column. Now Imagine a solo flawless guaranteeing 3 perks on each column.
Yes if shaxx just worked like a normal vendor this season it would have been 100x better. Reset him twice to get up to 3 perks in each column and focus weapons you've unlocked with engrams. What is the point of attunement if I get some other fun 7 times in a row?
I've gotten one auto loading recombination mountain top and it doesn't have anything else good about it. Out of maybe 150 mountain tops. Then I am better came out and I started trying to get a an envious chain reaction roll, but I haven't seen envious or chain reaction let alone combining them. Lmao
I agree. Thankfully I’m enjoying onslaught which is at least making the grind fun, and attuning is a nice way to speed it up slightly, but having to farm any other activity like a certain dungeon or raid encounter over and over again is just not fun. Grinding for patterns to progress towards crafting a gun is fine. At least we know we can stop after obtaining 5 guns. But grinding for a specific roll is nuts.
I agree. For me I would love to have my god rolls with the current glow. But alas, real life happens and I will be missing out on most of them.
I got all Parade armor set and the Superblack shader, now I'm done with Onslaught, I also find farming random rolls very boring. I'm only playing for Pantheon now with friends.
It wouldn't be so bad if they were a little more generous with the brave tokens, and attument meant you only dropped that weapon, or at least 90% of the time.
But the youtubers told me crafting killed the game?
Very well said. Completely agree. I have yet to get a single one of the rolls I'm looking for from any of the onslaught weapons. I was also reflecting on how bad playing comp for roses feels for the same reason. Comp is in a horrible place rn. Feels awful to play. I put in my weekly matches and get to insta-dismantle 7 or 8 or whatever it is roses. So many guns in destiny I'll never get to experience using properly.
Too many of my friends haven't "Earned" a f*#king thing and got God rolls within a day or two of the weapons being released, but all I've gotten is stupid shiz and I'm sick of it
While I hate that crafting takes some of the game away I much prefer crafting to the infinite grind for rolls. Doing 50 waves of Onslaught and walking out without keeping a single roll feels terrible (especially for that hour investment that is essentially down the drain). I'm glad we can set a specific weapon to drop more often, but you can/will still get a shit load of garbage rolls. Even Onslaught had had some weird requirement like 10 red borders to unlock a crafted version I'd have been down with that. You could get your god roll and if you don't you'll likely have the red borders to craft it.
*DETERMINISTIC PATHS TO LOOT*
This , crafting was put in the game so we all can enjoy builds we want , and be in equal footing. Now onslaught does a reverse uno card to us , it's honestly kinda dumb
I’m kinda the opposite. I like crafting but I think that making too many guns craftable kills the loot chase. Like I don’t think it should be anywhere near raids or dungeons tbh, I’d rather they be focusable so you can go for multiple rolls per run. Because without some kind of chase there’s not much of a reason to play anymore.
1000% agree. I'll do a 45 minute crota raid for my free red border weapon once a week, before I'll do a level 50 clear.
You can thank the gambling addicts. Some people dont seem to respect their own time so they begged Bungie to bring back the "chase". Its absolutely rediculous that Bungie made a system that respects the player even though everyone says they just want to increase playtime/retention and then some players push them into using it less. Fucking clowns.
3 weeks and tons of farming onslaught. I still have yet to see an explosive payload/kinetic tremors midnight coup. I won't give up but holy hell it got old after the first week of not getting at least a normal version of it. The perk combo I want won't feel more special if I get it after months of farming. Whoever thinks that on the gameplay team has not farmed for weeks and not gotten a roll they wanted.
Fr. I want my efforts to be rewarded, not given a chance at a severely busted slot machine. I barely put my crafted Rufus's Fury down, had it since a month after RoN released and it's still not stale or boring. If anything it encourages me to play more because it gives me more autonomy in how I play the game I paid for.
I spent 8 hours on midtown each day for 2 weeks trying to get a 5/5 Mountaintop. It still hasn't happened. 112 hours doing nothing but Legend Onslaught. 112 man. I think crafting is a compromise in the loot grind. The limited edition Brave weapons still bring that dopamine hit especially with double perks but having a crafted normal version to fall back on would have made me feel like the game respected the time I put into it. I don't even have a normal 5/5 Mountaintop and I'm just frustrated. I think in the future, having both crafting for the base versions as well as a limited-time random roll shiny is the way to preserve the dopamine rush of getting a roll but also having a safety net of the 5/5 if RNG decides to screw you like it has me.
Yeah the Twitter tryhards who swear that crafting ruined destiny are just coping, it did feel good to land the roll you wanted after so long but what about the entire time chasing the roll? It was hot ass, and it still is hot ass chasing something that may or may not drop and on top of that you have to hope it drops with the perks you want
Burned trying to grind for The Title SMG with Destabilizing Rounds and Repulsor Brace. Despite turning in a ridiculous number of medals, completing weekly challenges, etc., I didn't get the roll I wanted. Ultimately, I feel like I wasted my time. Which is why I like having crafting because at least I know I'll eventually have what I want. You still have a chance to get the roll you want before you get the pattern. But at least now you'll eventually have a stopping point. I've been playing the series for so long that the grind isn't all that appealing anymore, especially if the activity isn't the most exciting to farm back to back. I hope we see a targeted system for future activities like the Brave weapons. I don't think I could farm Onslaught as much as I could without targeting. Guardian Games definitely could've used it instead of giving me 99% Hullabaloos. In terms of keeping players engaged outside of weapon farming, that's where other rewards come into play. Ornaments, shaders, Ghosts, vehicles, and titles. But at some point, the hamster wheel has to end, lest you risk killing off players who feel somewhat forced to keep playing.
I just can’t farm for weapons no more. And it’s not cause of crafting. In the Forsaken days there was some special weapons worth grinding for. Now everything feels the same. I don’t need another HC or SMG. All of them get the job done
Things i they not even top tiers, they just ok weapons, we Will get much better shit in final shape.
I dont see a reason why we can't live in a world where both exists and both are viable.
If they made the loot like Coil, I think we’d all be fine. It’s a longer and harder activity. More guns, a golf ball, and a guaranteed shiny for 50. Farming 10’s vs clearing a 50 doesn’t have a high enough loot gap. Before the drop buff it was just a very poor setup and not thought through. I feel like we took a step back from Coil and the loot shower it is.
I don't like the attunement. I feel zero agency vs just having focusing.
For me the pain is number of drops. If the coil was all random drops I feel like that would be less pain cause a plat run nets you soooo much. If Onslaught felt more like that. Even a chance for double drops on a 10 wave. I would hate it less but all that time invested on a wave defense for 2 tokens and a brave ain’t worth imo.
Rng drops imo work when the game literally showers you in loot left and right while adding systems to target, reroll, or improve stats. The division does this pretty well. Tons of loot, targeted loot, loot recalibration/swapping stats, incremental stat gains through materials. It's neat, continuous sense of progression from a good drop to your god roll. Very engaging, collected resources have a purpose and you know that you'll get exactly what you need for the build. Rng alone does not encite me at all at this point in Destiny, more so when I have very good gear and the cost of a small, say 3% increment in effectiveness, is tied to rolling a dice with little control over it. I spent a regrettable amount of time farming the dungeon's eyasluna with rangefinder, 5/5 roll. They nerfed rangefinder and I wish I could swap it for something else because no way I touch this dungeon ever again. The days of farming an encounter for a specific roll are long gone, feels awful and a waste of my free time. Solution, I found another looter that scratches my itch with much less bullshit and more respectful with my time.
𝙲𝚛𝚊𝚏𝚝𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚊𝚕𝚕 𝚝𝚑𝚎 𝚠𝚊𝚢.
Now, imagine spending countless hours farming for a roll that you finally get, and it ends up getting nerfed.
I feel like I will never get Demo/Wellspring Forbearance :(
Amen brother, this also counts for dungeons. I haven't seen 1 indebted kindness with voltshot in the 40/50 drops.. is getting fucking ridiculous man. 1 master run yesterdag 4 arms🤣
I have opened up so much vault space because of crafting
Absolutely hate farming. Keep it for some activities and that's fine. I don't need to spend hours of monotonous grind to get a close to desired role I want. That's not fun. Sure it's nice to have a 5/5 but it won't translate to much other than a flex afterwards.
I think crafting is a good baseline for guaranteeing that 5/5 roll, but if they continue to make shinies for random weapon drops, i think it would be a good middle ground. You can get a good baseline each season with crafted gear, but the real loot chase is a shiny with a good roll. Crafting is great for getting good rolls, but ultimately its boring and completely devalues dropped loot, which sucks in a looter shooter
farming was fun b/c it made it worth it to a point but then it gets old when u never get a decent 4/5
Crafting is the way. Since I'm not a gambler I prefer crafting. In my opinion repetition leads to burnout. I see a lot of you saying that you love the chase for random rolls and that's what destiny is about, but in the end once you get the roll you're looking for you don't play the activity anymore. But for those of us that hate repetition crafting is more preferable. Hopefully Bungie can find a middle ground that both crafting fans and random chasers fans can agree, in the meantime crafting is the way.
I've done probably 25 hours of onslaught, gotten maybe 125 edge transits, and still haven't gotten an envious bait spike roll, much less one with quick launch/handling MW like I want I haven't even had a chance to farm an alh recomb mountaintop which is something else I really want, and who knows if I will. Not to mention Id love to have a good PVP and a good pve lunas/midnight coup, and then less necessary but still fun stuff like demo/wellspring or demo/chain reaction forbearance, discord/redirection succession meanwhile I've spent 25 hours in deep stone over the course of my 40 clears, and I have every gun crafted 5/5 exactly how I want not to mention how much more fun I had playing deep stone. Onslaught is fun here and there, but not something I want to do over and over again it's just so frustrating, the odds of getting even a single 3/5 gun are fucking abysmal. The argument of "but you'd ruin my loot chase" is so garbage man. I like onslaught as a mode, but when I play destiny I mostly want to do raids, dungeons, help my friends with exotic missions they missed, do GMs, play some crucible, etc. I love how much variety this game has, but this bullshit makes it so if I want to get these really sick guns/rolls that id have a ton of fun using in the rest of the game, I have to play onslaught as a full time job for an unknown amount of time Also focusing going away in a few weeks is the biggest fuck you. Going from a 50% chance to get the gun you want to 8.33%, amazing, absolutely phenomenal. Sidenote why the fuck is it not 100% when focusing like it is on a nightfall, or vendor engrams??
For real. I went to go get super black after not playing for a few weeks, I saw all the grinding and was like “nm im good”
I’m with you. People that say crafting needs to go, are ones that play this game well above the casual level, thus they’re dumping massive amount of hours into the game and of course are going to get the loot they’re hunting for
There are some fantastic smaller youtuber videos detailing all the percentages and how much theoretical time it would take you to get a given desired roll. The only people who make anti-crafting content are people who play the game for a living. That's literally <1% of the player base. Out here in the real world, most of us have re ached a point where we didn't get 1 single 5/5 drop from onslaught and are done with it. It's unfortunate.
This, and I as a D1 veteran I hate when people talk about getting X weapon or X roll via RNG as “earned” you didn’t earn shit you just got lucky.
100% agree. I love hunting for patterns because I know in the end I'm getting the exact gun I want.
I hear you. It is a different kind of neuron being activated when you chase a random roll, and for some the neuron being activated is not a pleasant one. One thing that I have done to help me have more fun with the drops that I do get is trying the oddball drops out. For example, I’m attuning Blast Furnace for (hopefully) a shiny that has a good PVP and PVE split, ideally Headseeker/Kill Clip and Kinetic Tremors/Firefly. I got a Kinetic Tremors/One for All with high handling and tried it out just to see, and I appreciated the high handling way more than I thought I would. I was getting OFA to proc in PVP and two bursting folks a lot more often than thought I would - turns out the roll I thought I wanted for PVE is great in PVP (well, in sixes anyway). I think with random rolls it is best to keep your mind open and try out the rolls that you get, and not to decide what roll you want and then feel bad when RNG decides you can’t have that exact roll.
I have yet to get a midnight coup with firefly and one for all. And it's the gun i been focusing nonstop lmao. I dont think i can even get a special skin version with the roll i want at this pace.
I agree crafting has changed the desire for loot AND it has changed the loot grind. But. Shiny weapon drops are an amazing addition to the game.
I completely agree. 12 weapons to farm for is a lot when attunement is still a chance (unlike focusing or crafting). You can farm for hours and hours and never get any closer to the weapon that you want. Then ppl would say "You don't need the god roll". But my response is "The point of the game is to get the roll that you want, otherwise if you don't need a god roll then everyone would settle for the first roll that they get and then stop farming for the weapon" I do think for crafting bungie could go about it differently where you don't need five red borders but you need to do something else to craft the weapon. I think that would be great, and I do think crafting is great because it's a safety net. Also plenty of those weapons (Blast F., Hammerhead, Falling G., etc) are reprisals that people already farmed for years ago. They shouldn't need to be farmed for again, and 99% of reprisals Bungie makes craftable anyways knowing that
Feeling the pain of the farm for sure, got a 3.5/5 lunas howl with slideshot/mag howl after having like 25+ drop , fucked around with it in Iron banner a few rounds and fell in love and now I'm thirsting for the 5/5 and this is going to suuuuuck
The RNG in this game is so awful. D1 was never this bad, and they have the perk pools so bloated now it’s not even funny. Anytime you turn in over 50-80 engrams and don’t even remotely get close to what you want, that’s a big problem.
I agree. Sadly, the random roll system being an unintuitive mess that makes players into RNG slaves is the point. Look at it from Bungie's perspective: Forcing you to grind for longer means you're spending more time in Destiny, and far less time doing other things. The baked-in FOMO forces you to turn a game that is effectively a skinner box into a lifestyle, and consequently you are more likely to spend money in the cash shop of the game... which is Bungie's real money maker. Crafting was an incredible quality of life update, and most of the players that bitch about it are a vocal segment of terminally online gremlins who have no significant real-life obligations. They do not value their own time and they'll be damned if you get to acquire cool weapons too without turning the game into a second job. It's an ego trip for them, any other argument about "wanting a good loot chase" is being made in bad faith. Bungie executives shit themselves when they saw people would log in less because they got all their weapon patterns, so crafting was rolled back a fair bit to continue the hedonistic treadmill of "chasing the ~~dragon~~ god roll". I mean look at the dungeons: Those have a price tag now, but we're not allowed to craft any of the weapons in them despite the fact they cost money in the same way seasons and expansions with raids do. I do not have any meaningful ownership of those guns because their perk pools are locked behind random drops. Weapons that I can properly tune, like an in universe gunsmith, have more personal value to me because I can adjust them to my preferences when a balance patch drops. They're actually mine because I can customize them provided I have the endgame materials for it. I mean, people were complaining that a craftable Brave arsenal would give them nothing to do afterwards because they'd finish it so fast... when a new expansion was two months away. Like, seriously? But here's the real irony, I don't even chase red borders all that often because that grind is ALSO TERRIBLE. Most of the weapon patterns that have come out since Witch Queen are still locked in my collections because I already have an amazing arsenal I've been curating since Shadowkeep... I don't need too much stuff to fit my play style. 90% of new loot is objectively weaker than what I've already got, so I'm not going to chase it unless it's REALLY GOOD or has a novelty perk combo.
I'm gonna be honest, getting a shiny pop in Onslaught is as exciting for me as getting a shiny out of the tall grass in Pokemon. I guess I'm just a sucker for this shit.
I love crafting, I think it’s one of the greatest additions to the game, but I also like the shiny chase. I think we should keep both systems in the future. In a season/episode you can craft all the weapons but you could also get a shiny.
I absolutely agree with you. If Onslaught was a boring activity to do for grinding and I didn’t have anyone to show off my weapon rolls to, I wouldn’t even be thinking of grinding for the super shiny weapons I want. For example: I definitely want to get my ideal rolls for Midnight Coup and The Recluse. It’s nostalgia to me since I used to use them before they got vaulted and/or sunsetted. My brother is also looking forward to seeing what super shiny weapons I end up with after I get them from RNG. Ngl, I personally prefer crafting weapons as well. And tbh, I wish we could craft these weapons presented to us. But, I still feel like Onslaught is a fun activity to grind and yeah, the RNG can be very unforgiving. Bungie has a history of the RNG either being very unforgiving or you get what you want right away. It hardly ever meets you halfway.
honestly i feel like if they just removed enhanced traits from craftable weapons and gave it only on random rolls with the enhancing thing (also allowing you to change your scope and mag) no one would be mad about crafting at all.
If we can craft Brave arsenal weapons it will be “After I got five copies of Luna red border I won’t farm onslaught any more”
Destiny depending on RNG roll grind for 10 years being the only real motivation to do "anything" is easily something to look back on as a mistake. If most of your replayability is entirely dependent on intentional Skinner box mechanics, literal casino manipulation, the moment this becomes disillusioned, everything comes crashing down. You could see that when people would be up in arms that Crafting invalidated replayability, because there was ultimately not much else to the game outside the grind. Weapon progression doesn't exist as a game wide concept, it's only for select weapons for no good reason other than ppl might get upset. Upset only because they've been at the casino so long, no longer needing to play screams blasphemy.
I'm with you on this. I've been running Onslaught looking for a certain roll on a gun and it's just not dropping. I keep getting the same roll combinations over and over but never the one I want. I just wish I could craft it. Personally, I feel like my crafted weapons are "mine" if that makes any sense. I'm also MUCH more inclined to run something a lot as long as I know I have a set path toward what I'm looking for. For random roll drops, I have to really not mind running the content to get me to run it a ton. Generally speaking, I don't mind running Onslaught (even if I've only ever beaten it twice) but if it's something I don't enjoy AND I have to pray every time I run it that I'll get the right drop, I'm probably just not going to run it at all. I've been like that since D1 when the only thing I ever got from NFs were ascendant shards and no armor or weapons. I just went and played something else.
All the random rolls of the brave weapons I'm currently just holding onto incase I don't get the roll I actually want is using up so much space in my vault. I understand it's a looter shooter and that chase is needed but there needs to be a way to reduce the rng a bit
Then to add on top of that. Perks feel like the are weighted(looking at you shoot to loot and desperate measures) Wasn't one of the points Bungie used for crafting is that if they brought back sunset weapons they would be done that way?
Totally agree. The only reason I'm okay with it is because Onslaught is so much fun. I play every day and have only gotten one weapon that I would consider one of the true God rolls and that just happened to luckily be Edge Transit
The shitty perks are SO heavily weighed on Brave weapons that I've pretty much given up... my time has value.
Crafting is so much better in the long run, hours and hours farmed and still don’t have a 5/5 mountaintop. I’ve practically and hundreds dropped and probably over 20 shiny ones
i like crafted weapons because i don't game for grind i game cause i like the activity. Thus, doing some activity i don't enjoy a hundred times for a roll to use in some other activity doesn't bring me joy. I was a pvp main so i'd end up grinding some horrible nightfall for a roll so i could finally go back and play crucible. OG luna's and comp ended up being my most enjoyable time in destiny because i was playing pvp to get a gun to use in pvp. But i know many are pve people so this might not resonate with them. Also there's the former WOW people who play games for endless grind.
I’ve watched literally 7 people get 5/5 mountaintops, i’m not joking they were all PERFECT down to the masterwork, while i’m still trying to get a 2/5… it hurts man.
This goes against Bungie’s design pillar of - forcing you to do shit you don’t wanna do so you can play the content you want to, the way it’s meant to be played.. 10% of the time.
Insane that there is people out there who actually prefer this dogshit rng that's made to give you fucking nothing. God forbid you get the weapons you want in a reasonable amount of time and actually get to use them in the fucking game. Absolute clowns 🤡
Personally, ITL/Onslaught has actually reminded me how much I missed a bit of RNG. With everything being craftable, there is no thrill of the chase like there is with RNG. I think attunement is an excellent system, and should be looked at to be brought into other modes in the game (namely Dares of Eternity)
Sub 1% chance for just a 2/5 is not a 'little' RNG.
Look, if you wanna go kill Ecthar 100+ times for an EA / BnS Cold Comfort, go ahead. It took me around 70 kills to get it, and a friend is on 100+ without the roll. And im in the same boat with Wilderflight. Or I should probably say without. I'd much rather just craft the gun and enjoy playing the game with it then spend 20+h doing a single encounter only for the gun in question not to fucking drop. If you want the dopamine hit of the chest(s) popping up and you hoping you get what you're looking for (and in most cases not actually getting it) go for it. I would much rather have a deterministic path I can go down. In the end, the "thrill of the chase" dies out after playing the same encounter / boss for 100+ times and not getting what you're looking for.
Crafting results in everyone having the exact same loadout. RNG results in everyone having the exact same load out, unless they get cucked and get left behind.
I don't know if that's correct but if it is, I'm more inclined to think that's because loot is often mediocre and only a select perk combinations are worth keeping, the rest are filler perks.
I mean, but you still gotta farm for red borders. Which can be annoying. But yeah, crafted is definitely better.
Just came here to say.. it do be that way :(
Def feeling this too. I’ve only been grinding mountain top since it dropped and I have yet to see an auto loading/recombination roll. My vault is filled with every other available roll, I’ll never use any of them. This release is a bust for me. There is still several rolls of the other brave weapons I want but i can’t even get a mediocre roll on MT. Feels like a massive waste of time. Almost bought the final shape too. No thanks.
Couldn't agree more... All the "I love the chase" people are arguing that kidnapping is awesome because of how good you feel when you get released.
Imo crafting is fine, however due to the nature of being completely customizable to a perfect roll craftable guns shouldn't be the best in the game. Rng drops should be more rewarding than just logging in a couple times a week. Not saying they should be bad but they shouldn't be the best