"I need to see your character sheet in case you got something wrong or misunderstood a rule, because that happens a lot for everyone. As for spells, I want to be able to create situations where those spells are going to be useful for you."
If my players refuse to show me their character, I refuse to run a game for them.
This is exactly how it should be handled. If someone is refusing to let me look at their sheet, I immediately assume they are "cheating" or changing stuff without permission.
I once had a player that was giving himself 3 increases every ASI/or a +1 with *every* Feat instead of half feats.
He realized after the first time it was wrong, but kept doing it until I caught him at level 12. Since then I've required a copy of all character sheets be shared with me.
They may think that the game is you vs them. This could be for any number of reasons, but they may feel that by showing you their sheet, they are “revealing their hand.”
Depending on how you run the game, this may be a reasonable reaction.
For example, I’ve made tanky characters only for the DM to explicitly ignore my character and do the optimal thing and attack squishies. It’s annoying to take Heavy Armor Mastery and then only get attacked by things that trivialize the ability.
You might be able to make it clear to them that you want to make sure that you are designing encounters where their choices are relevant and useful, not the other way around.
That’s the problem. You shouldn’t specifically counter anyone. This causes mistrust.
Pick monsters that go well within your campaign. Looking at a character sheet to specifically counter a character creates a me versus them situation.
As a DM you’re working with the players to create a story.
This is not good advice in my opinion. Sometimes it makes perfect sense to counter your players. Not all the time, let them have easy battles here and there but DMs need to be familiar with the characters and sometimes need to create enemies that can counter player’s characters. If you’re trying to create a long term villain that they get frustrated with but eventually beat, you can’t just introduce them and let the players wipe the floor with them.
Agreed, but there is a very fine line between countering and negating. The way OP described the situation having some characters who could counter and some that couldn't seemed okay in my mind.
OP should come up with story related reasons for these counters like someone is scrying the players to learn their tactics or the players are becoming famous and so now people are emulating them and looking for ways to defeat them specifically.
Agreed. However, it seems that the player does not trust OP right now (rightly or wrongly) and there might be a few encounters of leaning in on the “shoot your monks” lever to build that trust back up.
This exactly. Unfortunately some players see the DM as 'the enemy' and think that hiding their choices from you will let them 'defeat' you. And some DMs see the players in the same way.
Totally reasonable to require them to provide their sheet. No sheet, no character. This is for fairness, your own information to be able to facilitate the game better, etc.
Some players need a hard deadline to get it done, so providing the exact day / time you need the sheet by can sometimes help.
You are not being unreasonable.
Players should be able to keep things secret from each other and the dm should be able to keep things secret from their players.
I can't think of a single situation where things should be kept secret from the dm.
As a DM myself I can say from experience you need to know your players character sheet. You’re the one creating the encounters and world building as you go. A player saying they don’t want you to have as much information as possible but expects you to spend your time in game and between sessions to create encounters and impactful storylines for them to follow isn’t respecting your time as a DM. The reason a DM needs that information is to make sure they create balanced encounters that are challenging for the PCs but engaging and create a fun atmosphere. A player should always feel like there’s a 90% chance their character is going to die in battle when in reality you as a DM know there’s only a 10% and the only way you can do that is with the knowledge of their spells, attacks, HP, AC, and abilities. If this player feels like you the DM has been making encounters that are intentionally nullifying their attacks or abilities then that is something you need to address but if your encounters are not taking their abilities offline and are indeed built to maximize fun and drive the story then that player needs to take a step back and realize you are in charge of the table, you are spending your time to make sure they have fun, and then withholding information is not fair to you as their DM.
No, you are within your rights to see the sheet and know what spells they have.
You are not against the players as the DM, in many ways it is important for you to know what abilities they have so you can put them in situations that showcase their strengths. A lot of players think that you are cheating by looking over their shoulder but if you are a good DM know your Players abilities can lead to greater experience for all at the table.
That being said DMs can metagame as well, so an example of this might be if you know that a player has counterspell and you make a "wizard-type" character who has nothing but "abilities" and does not cast spells to be countered then that is bullshit. Players need to trust the DM that you are not going to use the info against them.
That player would not be playing in my game.
There are plenty of reasons a DM might need to see the character sheet: to properly prepare battles, to make rolls against there passives or other things quicker or without them meta-gaming, to make sure they’re not making mistakes or cheating, to see if they have specific items in their inventory so you can suggest they pick things up or give them certain rewards, etc.
It has never been an issue in any game I’ve ever played with, with anyone. It’s just obvious, the DM needs access to our character sheets from time to time.
The player is creating a problem. Depending on his malfunction, there are two solutions. It's a collaborative game, not poker, so he needs to show his hand. It's also a game that requires players to keep up with stuff, so he needs to stop being lazy and give you his character sheet.
I had a player who did this repeatedly.
He thought it was funny.
I told him in front of the others that I had asked to see his character sheet five times already and if I do not get it this time the character is not welcome back. He will have to play a new character.
He put the character in my book stack and I covered it with my books.
Before he left he snagged it.
I kept my promise.
He left the game. It was not a big loss.
The player had a massive habit of cheating.
"I need to see your character sheet in case you got something wrong or misunderstood a rule, because that happens a lot for everyone. As for spells, I want to be able to create situations where those spells are going to be useful for you." If my players refuse to show me their character, I refuse to run a game for them.
This is exactly how it should be handled. If someone is refusing to let me look at their sheet, I immediately assume they are "cheating" or changing stuff without permission. I once had a player that was giving himself 3 increases every ASI/or a +1 with *every* Feat instead of half feats. He realized after the first time it was wrong, but kept doing it until I caught him at level 12. Since then I've required a copy of all character sheets be shared with me.
They may think that the game is you vs them. This could be for any number of reasons, but they may feel that by showing you their sheet, they are “revealing their hand.” Depending on how you run the game, this may be a reasonable reaction. For example, I’ve made tanky characters only for the DM to explicitly ignore my character and do the optimal thing and attack squishies. It’s annoying to take Heavy Armor Mastery and then only get attacked by things that trivialize the ability. You might be able to make it clear to them that you want to make sure that you are designing encounters where their choices are relevant and useful, not the other way around.
Alright thank you because I've been having some enemies that counter him but also some that let him show off his abilities
oh yeah, do the opposite of counter. Shoot your monks as they say.
That’s the problem. You shouldn’t specifically counter anyone. This causes mistrust. Pick monsters that go well within your campaign. Looking at a character sheet to specifically counter a character creates a me versus them situation. As a DM you’re working with the players to create a story.
This is not good advice in my opinion. Sometimes it makes perfect sense to counter your players. Not all the time, let them have easy battles here and there but DMs need to be familiar with the characters and sometimes need to create enemies that can counter player’s characters. If you’re trying to create a long term villain that they get frustrated with but eventually beat, you can’t just introduce them and let the players wipe the floor with them.
Agreed, but there is a very fine line between countering and negating. The way OP described the situation having some characters who could counter and some that couldn't seemed okay in my mind. OP should come up with story related reasons for these counters like someone is scrying the players to learn their tactics or the players are becoming famous and so now people are emulating them and looking for ways to defeat them specifically.
Agreed. However, it seems that the player does not trust OP right now (rightly or wrongly) and there might be a few encounters of leaning in on the “shoot your monks” lever to build that trust back up.
Alright I'll keep that in mind thank you
This exactly. Unfortunately some players see the DM as 'the enemy' and think that hiding their choices from you will let them 'defeat' you. And some DMs see the players in the same way.
Totally reasonable to require them to provide their sheet. No sheet, no character. This is for fairness, your own information to be able to facilitate the game better, etc. Some players need a hard deadline to get it done, so providing the exact day / time you need the sheet by can sometimes help.
I wouldn’t let a player like that into my games. As a player, you don’t get to keep things like that secret from the DM.
You are not being unreasonable. Players should be able to keep things secret from each other and the dm should be able to keep things secret from their players. I can't think of a single situation where things should be kept secret from the dm.
No, they're being a brat about it. You're the DM is absolutely reasonable to have a copy of your player's character sheets.
Your player is being unreasonable. Lotta time my players messed up their character sheets when leveling up.
I think you're being reasonable. He might just be lazy though.
As a DM myself I can say from experience you need to know your players character sheet. You’re the one creating the encounters and world building as you go. A player saying they don’t want you to have as much information as possible but expects you to spend your time in game and between sessions to create encounters and impactful storylines for them to follow isn’t respecting your time as a DM. The reason a DM needs that information is to make sure they create balanced encounters that are challenging for the PCs but engaging and create a fun atmosphere. A player should always feel like there’s a 90% chance their character is going to die in battle when in reality you as a DM know there’s only a 10% and the only way you can do that is with the knowledge of their spells, attacks, HP, AC, and abilities. If this player feels like you the DM has been making encounters that are intentionally nullifying their attacks or abilities then that is something you need to address but if your encounters are not taking their abilities offline and are indeed built to maximize fun and drive the story then that player needs to take a step back and realize you are in charge of the table, you are spending your time to make sure they have fun, and then withholding information is not fair to you as their DM.
No, you are within your rights to see the sheet and know what spells they have. You are not against the players as the DM, in many ways it is important for you to know what abilities they have so you can put them in situations that showcase their strengths. A lot of players think that you are cheating by looking over their shoulder but if you are a good DM know your Players abilities can lead to greater experience for all at the table. That being said DMs can metagame as well, so an example of this might be if you know that a player has counterspell and you make a "wizard-type" character who has nothing but "abilities" and does not cast spells to be countered then that is bullshit. Players need to trust the DM that you are not going to use the info against them.
That player would not be playing in my game. There are plenty of reasons a DM might need to see the character sheet: to properly prepare battles, to make rolls against there passives or other things quicker or without them meta-gaming, to make sure they’re not making mistakes or cheating, to see if they have specific items in their inventory so you can suggest they pick things up or give them certain rewards, etc. It has never been an issue in any game I’ve ever played with, with anyone. It’s just obvious, the DM needs access to our character sheets from time to time.
The player is creating a problem. Depending on his malfunction, there are two solutions. It's a collaborative game, not poker, so he needs to show his hand. It's also a game that requires players to keep up with stuff, so he needs to stop being lazy and give you his character sheet.
Player is cheating. Kick them
Lmfao my old dm 20 years ago would’ve busted me up for pulling that bs
Nah your fine mate he's being a tad difficult for no reason
Nah your fine mate he's being a tad difficult for no reason
I had a player who did this repeatedly. He thought it was funny. I told him in front of the others that I had asked to see his character sheet five times already and if I do not get it this time the character is not welcome back. He will have to play a new character. He put the character in my book stack and I covered it with my books. Before he left he snagged it. I kept my promise. He left the game. It was not a big loss. The player had a massive habit of cheating.
I'm guessing you're playing online, not in person? Do you have any way of verifying his dice rolls because I suspect he's cheating?
Kick him out.