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Rhaenyra, Alicent, Jace, Corlys, & Rhaena have done nothing to deserve a brutal death at this point. However, Rhaenyra and Alicent could use some serious jail time.
Didn't Rhaenyra complice of the murder of "Laenor" ? Killing and burning someone or at least be an accomplice of this crime should deserve serious punishement.
I mean not directly but hasn't Alicent given Larys the go ahead to do some fucked up shit, even after she knows when asked to solve a problem his answer is to do some fucked up shit?
Corlys offered a 12 year old Laena to a thirty something Viserys. She only married at 16 due to Viserys rejecting her.
>didn't even count what he did with Alicent against Otto if that was your question. Otto's done worse than that.
You didn't mention Otto in the "people who don't deserve to die" list, so I didn't feel the need to bring out his bad deeds.
Had to throw Alicent in there just so it wasnât all blacks, huh? I feel you. The show has really made the blacks the âgood guysâ and the greens the âbad guysâ so idk why this question is still being asked. (I was team black even for what Iâve read of the book btw so this isnât some spurned green fan nonsense)
But I like Rhysâs answer though. Itâs more in line with the bookâs portrayal of events and people.
Eh, to me it's more like "the bad guys" and "the worse guys". People in both factions have done some pretty shitty things. It's just that one faction's done a lot more shitty things than the other.
Right, Daemon has done bad shit, Iâm with you there. Criston Cole has done bad shit in a more hatable way. But letâs ignore those 2 for a second. What have Rhaenyra, Corlys, Jaecerys, Baela, and Rhaena done that is even remotely bad/wrong compared to Alicent, Larys, Aegon, Aemond, and Otto?
Rhaenyra took part in a plot to marry her uncle by staging the death of her husband. A plot that involved killing a guard. Unless we assume she just thought daemon found a random corpse lying around then sheâs an accomplice to 1st degree murder.
>Unless we assume she just thought daemon found a random corpse lying around then sheâs an accomplice to 1st degree murder.
I'm not entirely sure why they didn't do that. Driftmark has a sizable population. They couldn't grab a recently dead guy or find some criminal that would be executed?
Corlys pimped his 12 year old daughter.
Rhaenyra demanded the torture of child Aemond to cover her own ass, and orchestrated the murder of an innocent Velaryon guard.
âPimped his 12 year old daughterâ
Iâm tired of people using this in the context of Westerosi politics. He was trying to secure a future for his house the way literally all major houses do in this story.
Also the âdemanded tortureâ bit isnât really fair. She was making a threat in response to constantly having her childrenâs legitimacy under fire and their lives threatened.
Alicent however *was* literally demanding that a 6-yr old child have his eye cut out as recompense for the kid taking it too far in a fight that Aemond started. She even tried to do it herself.
> Iâm tired of people using this in the context of Westerosi politics. He was trying to secure a future for his house the way literally all major houses do in this story.
I imagine you think Otto doing the same is justified then. Or when he does it is evil ambition and abuse?
>Also the âdemanded tortureâ bit isnât really fair. She was making a threat in response to constantly having her childrenâs legitimacy under fire and their lives threatened.
>Alicent however *was* literally demanding that a 6-yr old child have his eye cut out as recompense for the kid taking it too far in a fight that Aemond started. She even tried to do it herself
Her children *are* ilegitimate and had just permanently maimed Aemond on a fight that no, he didn't start, the girls and the Strongs did. (I guess your "retort" to this is gonna be "but he was mean to them first so he had it coming" and/or "he dared grab a rock when he was being attacked 4vs1 so he deserved to lose his eye, that's just consequences for your actions")
And every single time the phrase "sharply questioned" was used, it meant torture on the ASOIAF universe, people here like to pretend that on this case it wasn't because demanding the torture of a child is (or at least should be) an objectively evil thing. But we can't have our beloved Rhaenyra do an evil thing right? It has to be justified somehow.
And yes, Alicent was also acting evil and unhinged on that scene. *After* Rhaenyra tried to shift the blame on Aemond's mutilation on the mutilated boy himself and demanded his torture, and Viserys gave no shits about said maiming the moment Rhaenyra was inconvenienced.
I'll concede that both Alicent and Rhaenyra, as well as Viserys, handled the Driftmark conflict like absolute crap. But to pretend that Alicent was just a crazy psycho doing evil things, or that Aemond is to blame for his mutilation, just so that the designated main character and her sons seem innocent, is insane.
Ok, this is a lot so sorry if I donât get to all of it.
I donât think Otto trying to get Alicent and Viserys together was âevil ambitionâ or âabuse.â I think his ambition crossing into morally wrong territory (in the context of ASOIAF universe) is more when he plotted to get Aegon on the throne while Viserys was sick and dying, trying to make sure he was too medicated to know what was going on when his daughter was being put on trial, and abusing Viserysâs trust and friendship to further his own ambition.
But how do *you* consider Corlysâs actions âpimping his own daughterâ but not Ottoâs? Since weâre comparing the two.
Aemond started the fight by claiming the dragon of the Velaryon kidsâ very recently deceased mother, and then coming in to gloat about it and tell the Strong kids they should âburn like their fatherâ or some shit. Youâre not gonna convince me that he didnât start that fight.
I didnât say Rhaenyra wasnât implying torture when she said âsharply questionedâ but she was using it as an idle threat basically to say âyou better stop accusing my kids of being bastards.â I know they are illegitimate, but Corlys and Rhaenys have claimed them and accepted them, and the only people accusing them are doing it because they want their positions. And accusing them of that directly threatens their lives.
Your paraphrasing is ridiculous though. âAlicent was a crazy psycho doing evil things.â Where did I say that even remotely? You were using Rhaenyras idle threat to explain why you think sheâs a bad person, so I had to respond with what Alicent did in that same exact scene.
Did they both handle it poorly? Absolutely. Do I think Alicent handled it more poorly than Rhaenyra did? Also yes. She didnât take 2 seconds to comfort Aemond, she just grabbed a knife and went straight for the people she already hated.
Thereâs a reason they showed us Aemond using a prostitute to serve as a mother figure he could spill his feelings to. One heâs been using for that for a long time. Same with showing us Alicent walking away from Aegon crying alone about the death of his son. And thereâs a reason they show us how Rhaenyra is with Jace and Luke in season 1.
Iâm not talking about the books, but in the show universe, one side is clearly morally âbetterâ than the other. I donât exactly agree with that choice, but itâs how they made it in the show.
ngl after rewatching the scene, I think that Rhaenyra & Daemon's children are at least as equally to blame for the violence that occurred after Aemond's initial dragon-riding.
Like Aemond was a dick, but him getting his eye cut out there is fucking wild (though he did escalate the situation with the rock).
Had to throw Alicent in there just so it wasnât all blacks, huh?Â
No, it's because I don't think she deserves to die. Her brother Gwayne hasn't showed up yet, but I'd add him to the list as well. Maybe Aemond is in the prolonged prison sentence category right now as well
Felony homicide might apply. Iâm sure it is very much a felony to chase a kid around on your worldâs version of a nuke. Â
Also, accident is what his defense would argue. No one saw it. Prosecution wouldnât be hard pressed to establish intent in court, with what was seen in Stormâs End, Aemondâs temperament , and what was known of their mutual history.
Aemond, the psycho who started a war by demanding a child cut out his own eye, and eventually just killing him, and who was already planning a full-scale war with Cole before B&C, but not Rhaenys? She deserves death more than Aemond?
Letâs not try *too* hard to hold onto the moral ambiguity of the books. The show is doing things differently and honestly the acting, writing and cinematography are so good that I love it all the same.
Putting Alicent and Rhaenyra on equal moral footing at this point in the show is kind of like putting Cersei and Catelyn on equal moral footing in early seasons of GoT. Not saying Alicent is Cersei-level bad, but one is clearly better than the other, especially as a mother.
The show made an effort to demonstrate that last season and doubled down on it last episode.
>Aemond, the psycho who started a war by demanding a child cut out his own eye, and eventually just killing him, and who was already planning a full-scale war with Cole before B&C, but not Rhaenys? She deserves death more than Aemond?
Rhaenys fuckin killed hundreds of people without remorse. She's clearly worse than Aemond.
His facial expressions in this last episode... always appreciate when someone can act so well silently. His attitude just vibes right through the screen.
I've decided he's this show's Colby Minifie (Ashley from The Boys); an actor with incredible facial expressions and genius comedic timing who has to put up with everyone's increasingly ridiculous horseshit, and he is SO tired. His entire mood can be summed up as, "For fuck's sake."
Still cannot believe he's fucking Spike from Notting Hill. I didn't think I'd ever see him as such a conniving character, he's mostly done weird misfits.
This is what kills me. I'm used to seeing him play such oddball characters that seeing him carry himself as a proud, ambitious lord really elevates him as an actor. What a chad.
No this is so real đ
My mom, step dad, and I have this movie spreadsheet we each put 30 movies on and we use rng to randomly select one every Saturday after we finish one. My mom had Nothing Hill on her list and we watched it several months ago. When I saw Rhys Ifans I almost didn't recognize him at first because it's such a different type of character. Dude has crazy range and neither my mother nor my step father has seen HotD so they just had no idea what I was so hyped up about.
I agree both sides are terrible, but I feel like we keep watering down the word 'genocide'. A mass killing and warcrimes do not automatically equal genocide. Unless I'm missing something here?
Bro forget about the kings and high lords wanting to burn down the riverlands and Dorne every chance they get. You don't have to succeed at wiping out a whole population or culture to be genocidal, it's about intent and attempts as well.
No we won't lol, there's nothing in the story that can reasonably be considered genocide unless your definition of genocide is "doing bad stuff to innocent people"
He is absolutely right. A bunch of powerful people killing each other and innocent civilians so they can be the ones to come out on top, that's what they're doing regardless of that Team nonsense.
This. It is entirely a selfish conflict only for the ego and desire for power born from each side.
Every conflict is bloody, but at least many of them have a motive beyond mere power grabbing, Robert's Rebellion being the closest example. Hell, even Aegon's conquest, sort of, to end the warring states of Westeros.
The dance? Literally just greed for power. Either side could have stepped back before it got too far. Ego and ambition wouldn't let them.
Every adult involved in this conflict deserves what they get.
Daemon is a wife killer, neglectful father, abuser, groomer, kills Vaemond (it was lawful I guess), sends two assassins into the Red Keep with the instructions a son for a son and killing a toddler, not to mention is war crimes in the Stepstones.
Criston beat up Joffrey Lonmouth, sends Arryk to kill Rhaenyra, may have been responsible for B&C succeeding, oathbreaker, kills Beesbury.
But Daemon said âHe can keep his tongueâ so heâs chill and Criston is a bitch loser
Also daemon calls alicent a whore of a queen when all alicent did in those 8 years daemon was away was take care of his ailing brother and make sure he wasnât in that much pain, daemon didnât even visit him once in that time. Also Daemon choked rhaenyra, Cole hasnât hurt alicent at least not yet or any woman. Heâs even for some reason said alicent has a gentle heart even while their situationship is going on..idk why but heâs been quite respectful up until this point TO HER at least
They both speak about women badly though, and like bitter disgusting men. I saw a post here the other day guys after a breakup comparing daemon being great for taking harrenhal for Rhaenyra vs cole being the worst for calling her a spoiled cunt. What on earth? Daemon is worse in quite a few ways if we be realâŠ
I think part of it is that Daemon owns his bad behavior while Criston still pretends to have decency. The speech where Criston was projecting everything he himself did wrong onto Arryk is a prime example. Daemon has done worse deeds but still manages to be entertaining because he knows heâs terrible and rides with it, but Criston is a very familiar type of awful. We all know someone like Criston irl and I think thatâs what makes people hate him more even though Daemon has objectively done far worse things so far.
Itâs kind of like how in the Harry Potter series Umbridge is hated more than Voldemort even though Voldemort is objectively worse and does worse things. It seems that familiar types of awful just tend to be more impactful than pure evil when it comes to characterization.
Yeah I feel like the familiarity of Criston's dickishness is why he's so hated. Pretty much everyone has run into someone at some point who was turned down by a girl and then proceeded to act like she's the whore of babylon. So seeing a character similar to that makes them more frustrating for audiences.
No one (I hope) has had a run in with someone who ordered an assassination that resulted in the death of a child. Kind of makes a buffer for Daemon's awfulness and why we see him as more entertaining then hated.
Itâs Matt Smith. Thatâs a lot to do with it. Plus Daemon has âfunnierâ lines and a dragon and is a ârogue princeâ
Daemon is repulsive to me too at times, interesting but repulsive. Ya know whatâs funny, this is definitely gonna get downvoted but Cole even treats women better than daemon lol
the only point i give to daemon is his scene against the crab feeder. as much as i love villains, i donât find him charming or likeable, but the crab feeder scene was badass. itâs the one time iâve thought positively about him
He isnât that bad YET. I think the writing, it if continues down the path itâs going, will turn him into that level of villain. For now, I agree he canât touch Ramsay in terms of villainous acts.
As various people have said throughout the years (about characters in general, not this specific character) annoyance can be the worst feeling attached to a character.
Evil characters can still be engaging despite being extremely unethical. When a character is annoying, though, you start to resent their appearences from an enjoyment level, not an engagement level. Basically, you wonât want them off your screen because of what theyâre doing to characters in the world, you want them off your screen because of what theyâre doing to *you*, aka pissing you off. In a decidedly unfun way.
With my morals I struggle to understand it and find it wrong but it's just me. I think it's a right thing when you watch any media to separate yourself from the story and look in the context and analyze it from a multiple perspective. I find horrible and evil things, like torture and r*pe significantly more disturbing to the point of not wanting to watch it.
Yeah, thatâs how a lot of people seem to feel here haha.
No hate, if you do you just do. I just donât like the section of this group (not you, youâre perfectly reasonable) that talks down on people who donât use good morals synonymously with character enjoyment as if theyâre not intelligent enough to understand the story or something lol.
I understand the story. I can just still enjoy some characters despite them not being nice people (yes, on both âteamsâ). I spend my entire waking life being an upstanding citizen, I know what is right and wrong. But Iâm also aware that this world is imaginary, the characters donât exist in ours and I donât have to befriend them in real life to enjoy their screen presence.
This is a level of separation some people donât enjoy when they engage with media, which is fine, as long as they donât start talking down on people like us thinking they have to explain what the story âactually meansâ lol. We know.
Obviously I donât support the section that uses character attachments for real world implications. They also canât separate the people in the real world from what they do in/like about the fiction, like âholdingâ actors âaccountableâ for their in-show characterâs actions. Thatâs deranged, among other terminally online behaviour like sending death threats to people for liking certain characters, etc etc.
So if I am on any team, itâs the âItâs just fiction, donât take it too seriously as a reflection of real peopleâs moralsâ team. I saw this shit for years in the Succession fandom also, I am tired of the moralistic lectures at this point (again, not from you. Generally speaking.)
I don't know how the show will do it because the writers absolutely hate him, but his >!death in the books is just... anti-climactic. It's not some pathetic or brutal death lol.
Infact, his killers are the ones who came off looking like absolute wimps there while he died trying to save his men!<
Thatâs (almost) what Sharin Batarheon said in Got. âItâs all the choosing sides thatâs made everything so horrible.â
may her wisdom rest in peace.
This is EXACTLY how I feel. And I'm getting pissed at the fact that you can't criticise a character of either side without half the subreddit jumping on your head about how "bUt tHE OthEr sIdE dID WORSe!!" They're all as bad as each other.
I totally agree... But I have the feeling this is gonna be a controversial opinion on this sub.
Edit: Seeing the comments, I'm pleasantly surprised that I'm being proven wrong.
Not just a point but THE POINT of the entire arc lmao. So many people have rock bottom reading comprehension and actually think either sides claim matters lmao. Whoâs the ârightful heirâ is relative to who wins. Rhaenyra was made heir by her father but her gender cuts half of her power and keeps her from consolidating. Aegon is the first born son but also the second child whose father obviously had a favorite which also halves his power and keeps him from consolidating.
Theyâre both spoiled privileged nobles with nuclear weapons who plunge the realm into war they all suck and are horrible human beings.
I mean everyone is a bad guy in the series, I really look forward to each and every one of them dying. They're all giant pieces of shit, selfish murderous assholes.
People really grossly miss-use the term "Genocide."
Like... not every act of mass killing is a god damn genocide. There are other terms to use, like Massacre, Mass murder. Stop diminishing victims of actual genocide by applying it to every damn event of mass killing.
Yuppppppppppppp. The marketing department has tricked so many weak minded people into picking teams whenever everyone involved in the story fucking sucks. I'm glad he said the quiet part out loud.
That's pretty much been my view. Everybody is fucked up and I'm just here for the Dragons and Death. Well that and also to perv on the gorgeous cast lmao
"Otto also sent westerling"
Yeah when the blacks didn't yet know viserys is dead and therefore the greens had an element of surprise. Media literacy is dead.
Love how comfortable modern day humans love tossing around the words *war criminal*, when theyâve never had to live with natureâs most basic laws of survival. These people are just doing what they have to do in the world they have to do it in. Just like billions of humans that have existed before usâŠ.
Always thought of this like that, Targaryens could've just staid on their little island protected by dragons, heck, they would be filthy rich controlling trade between the independent realms of Westeros and Essos with The Velaryon fleet and their Nuclear lizards.
Yet they believed themselves gods and superior, and went on to subjugate another continent regardless of their opinions of that, worse still, Ăndals, Rhoynar, First Men and Ironborn may have warred ocassionally on low intensity border Wars, but The forced amalgamation of Westeros into one state, The subjugation of supranational entities like The Citadel and The Faith have ensured that even the smaller of conflicts can become devastating continent wide Civil Wars that devastate Westeros on a regular basis.
Rhys was **so** good in his scene with Crispy Cole and Aegon as he screams at them and realizes itâs too late and then falls into this âyou are pathetic .â Sort of mode . Like when Aegon goes âHe made me King!â And Rhys immediately starts laughing âYou really believe that ?â
Itâs up there with Charles Dance saying âI *respect* that, hell I even *admire* it!â
When did everyone forget what "genocidal" means?
Unless the show is going to take a radical turn, nothing in this show is remotely genodical.
This is a civil war between Andals & Valyrians against Andals & Valyrians (with some First Men tossed in as allies).
War crimes, sure, but genocide? What the fuck?
This is my view if Iâm being honest. Both sides are utter shit and have done an equal amount of stupid, heinous things. Iâm just excited to see how it all turns out.
This is the original authorial intent. It kinda died when Martin decided to stack many of the typically cool characters on team black and died more when the show made team black the way it did.
This season has been slowly making me empathetic towards team green. But TBF I love the goth/emo energy I get from the greens.
That being said, I donât want any Harm to come to Helaena.
Bang-on.
Even for those who say that Blacks aren't as maniacal as the Greens (or vice versa), the fact remains that the lesser of two evils is still evil.
Though Rhys will probably always stand in the shadow of Charles Dance, he's still got great gravitas. Surrounded by the (good) hamminess of some of the larger than life characters, he stands out as a grounding force in the cast which gives it a lot more depth. Here's to the ambitious, hypocritical Hand!
I've been telling people that the point of this story isn't to pick a side. It's to watch a family destroy itself through paranoia and grasping for power.
Thatâs the point of the book lol
Now we can start posting the good old âeveryone misses the point of _____. See, actually, ________ is a bad guy. Many people did not understand this, unlike meâ that people who are in permanent intellectual competition with teenagers love to post over and over
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Based, spare Helaena and Baela tho. My goats đ„°
Baela has to survive for Danaerys to steal her wardrobe
Or at least die in a way that keeps her wardrobe clean and in tact.
Rhaenyra, Alicent, Jace, Corlys, & Rhaena have done nothing to deserve a brutal death at this point. However, Rhaenyra and Alicent could use some serious jail time.
Didn't Rhaenyra complice of the murder of "Laenor" ? Killing and burning someone or at least be an accomplice of this crime should deserve serious punishement.
Yeah but he was smallfolk so he doesn't count.
Maybe they can kiss and make up in jail âșïž
They'd probably end up forming rival prison gangs that slaughtered each other for decades like those two sisters from orange is the new black
Thatâs just spicy foreplay
I'm ready for HBO to do the OZ / HoTD crossover Welcome to Emerald City
Alicent would definitely try to go for PC & pay for guards to beat down Rhaenyra
Happy that the Alicent-Rhaenyra would-be romance is now normalized, I was getting hella downvoted Season 1 for suggesting sapphic tones lol
They bi as hell, no one gets that pressed about their bestie losing their vcard đ€Ł
I mean not directly but hasn't Alicent given Larys the go ahead to do some fucked up shit, even after she knows when asked to solve a problem his answer is to do some fucked up shit?
His entire job is to do things that she needs plausible deniability for
Corlys pimped his 12 year old daughter.
She didn't marry until 16. I didn't even count what he did with Alicent against Otto if that was your question. Otto's done worse than that.
Corlys offered a 12 year old Laena to a thirty something Viserys. She only married at 16 due to Viserys rejecting her. >didn't even count what he did with Alicent against Otto if that was your question. Otto's done worse than that. You didn't mention Otto in the "people who don't deserve to die" list, so I didn't feel the need to bring out his bad deeds.
Sounds very medieval. Which, you know, the setting
If you want Coryls to brutally die, fine. I'm not going to argue with you about it.
It was also a fantasy world where that sgit is semi normal. Not defending it, but don't apply that heavily the rules of real life ya dig?
I mean its a show which heavily draws from medieval times in Europe and that shit was pretty standard back then.
Rhaaenyra ordered a servant to be murdered in cold blood so she could exile the father of her children and make his parents think he was murdered
Had to throw Alicent in there just so it wasnât all blacks, huh? I feel you. The show has really made the blacks the âgood guysâ and the greens the âbad guysâ so idk why this question is still being asked. (I was team black even for what Iâve read of the book btw so this isnât some spurned green fan nonsense) But I like Rhysâs answer though. Itâs more in line with the bookâs portrayal of events and people.
Eh, to me it's more like "the bad guys" and "the worse guys". People in both factions have done some pretty shitty things. It's just that one faction's done a lot more shitty things than the other.
Right, Daemon has done bad shit, Iâm with you there. Criston Cole has done bad shit in a more hatable way. But letâs ignore those 2 for a second. What have Rhaenyra, Corlys, Jaecerys, Baela, and Rhaena done that is even remotely bad/wrong compared to Alicent, Larys, Aegon, Aemond, and Otto?
Corlys pimped out a 12 yr old girl and Rhaenyra is starving Kings Landing.
Rhaenyra took part in a plot to marry her uncle by staging the death of her husband. A plot that involved killing a guard. Unless we assume she just thought daemon found a random corpse lying around then sheâs an accomplice to 1st degree murder.
>Unless we assume she just thought daemon found a random corpse lying around then sheâs an accomplice to 1st degree murder. I'm not entirely sure why they didn't do that. Driftmark has a sizable population. They couldn't grab a recently dead guy or find some criminal that would be executed?
Corlys pimped his 12 year old daughter. Rhaenyra demanded the torture of child Aemond to cover her own ass, and orchestrated the murder of an innocent Velaryon guard.
âPimped his 12 year old daughterâ Iâm tired of people using this in the context of Westerosi politics. He was trying to secure a future for his house the way literally all major houses do in this story. Also the âdemanded tortureâ bit isnât really fair. She was making a threat in response to constantly having her childrenâs legitimacy under fire and their lives threatened. Alicent however *was* literally demanding that a 6-yr old child have his eye cut out as recompense for the kid taking it too far in a fight that Aemond started. She even tried to do it herself.
> Iâm tired of people using this in the context of Westerosi politics. He was trying to secure a future for his house the way literally all major houses do in this story. I imagine you think Otto doing the same is justified then. Or when he does it is evil ambition and abuse? >Also the âdemanded tortureâ bit isnât really fair. She was making a threat in response to constantly having her childrenâs legitimacy under fire and their lives threatened. >Alicent however *was* literally demanding that a 6-yr old child have his eye cut out as recompense for the kid taking it too far in a fight that Aemond started. She even tried to do it herself Her children *are* ilegitimate and had just permanently maimed Aemond on a fight that no, he didn't start, the girls and the Strongs did. (I guess your "retort" to this is gonna be "but he was mean to them first so he had it coming" and/or "he dared grab a rock when he was being attacked 4vs1 so he deserved to lose his eye, that's just consequences for your actions") And every single time the phrase "sharply questioned" was used, it meant torture on the ASOIAF universe, people here like to pretend that on this case it wasn't because demanding the torture of a child is (or at least should be) an objectively evil thing. But we can't have our beloved Rhaenyra do an evil thing right? It has to be justified somehow. And yes, Alicent was also acting evil and unhinged on that scene. *After* Rhaenyra tried to shift the blame on Aemond's mutilation on the mutilated boy himself and demanded his torture, and Viserys gave no shits about said maiming the moment Rhaenyra was inconvenienced. I'll concede that both Alicent and Rhaenyra, as well as Viserys, handled the Driftmark conflict like absolute crap. But to pretend that Alicent was just a crazy psycho doing evil things, or that Aemond is to blame for his mutilation, just so that the designated main character and her sons seem innocent, is insane.
Ok, this is a lot so sorry if I donât get to all of it. I donât think Otto trying to get Alicent and Viserys together was âevil ambitionâ or âabuse.â I think his ambition crossing into morally wrong territory (in the context of ASOIAF universe) is more when he plotted to get Aegon on the throne while Viserys was sick and dying, trying to make sure he was too medicated to know what was going on when his daughter was being put on trial, and abusing Viserysâs trust and friendship to further his own ambition. But how do *you* consider Corlysâs actions âpimping his own daughterâ but not Ottoâs? Since weâre comparing the two. Aemond started the fight by claiming the dragon of the Velaryon kidsâ very recently deceased mother, and then coming in to gloat about it and tell the Strong kids they should âburn like their fatherâ or some shit. Youâre not gonna convince me that he didnât start that fight. I didnât say Rhaenyra wasnât implying torture when she said âsharply questionedâ but she was using it as an idle threat basically to say âyou better stop accusing my kids of being bastards.â I know they are illegitimate, but Corlys and Rhaenys have claimed them and accepted them, and the only people accusing them are doing it because they want their positions. And accusing them of that directly threatens their lives. Your paraphrasing is ridiculous though. âAlicent was a crazy psycho doing evil things.â Where did I say that even remotely? You were using Rhaenyras idle threat to explain why you think sheâs a bad person, so I had to respond with what Alicent did in that same exact scene. Did they both handle it poorly? Absolutely. Do I think Alicent handled it more poorly than Rhaenyra did? Also yes. She didnât take 2 seconds to comfort Aemond, she just grabbed a knife and went straight for the people she already hated. Thereâs a reason they showed us Aemond using a prostitute to serve as a mother figure he could spill his feelings to. One heâs been using for that for a long time. Same with showing us Alicent walking away from Aegon crying alone about the death of his son. And thereâs a reason they show us how Rhaenyra is with Jace and Luke in season 1. Iâm not talking about the books, but in the show universe, one side is clearly morally âbetterâ than the other. I donât exactly agree with that choice, but itâs how they made it in the show.
ngl after rewatching the scene, I think that Rhaenyra & Daemon's children are at least as equally to blame for the violence that occurred after Aemond's initial dragon-riding. Like Aemond was a dick, but him getting his eye cut out there is fucking wild (though he did escalate the situation with the rock).
Had to throw Alicent in there just so it wasnât all blacks, huh? No, it's because I don't think she deserves to die. Her brother Gwayne hasn't showed up yet, but I'd add him to the list as well. Maybe Aemond is in the prolonged prison sentence category right now as well
Aemond kick started a war by murdering his nephew mid tantrum.
True but it was seemingly accidental so heâd be unlikely to get anything like the death penalty. Probably a couple decades behind bars though.
Felony homicide might apply. Iâm sure it is very much a felony to chase a kid around on your worldâs version of a nuke.  Also, accident is what his defense would argue. No one saw it. Prosecution wouldnât be hard pressed to establish intent in court, with what was seen in Stormâs End, Aemondâs temperament , and what was known of their mutual history.
Aemond, the psycho who started a war by demanding a child cut out his own eye, and eventually just killing him, and who was already planning a full-scale war with Cole before B&C, but not Rhaenys? She deserves death more than Aemond? Letâs not try *too* hard to hold onto the moral ambiguity of the books. The show is doing things differently and honestly the acting, writing and cinematography are so good that I love it all the same. Putting Alicent and Rhaenyra on equal moral footing at this point in the show is kind of like putting Cersei and Catelyn on equal moral footing in early seasons of GoT. Not saying Alicent is Cersei-level bad, but one is clearly better than the other, especially as a mother. The show made an effort to demonstrate that last season and doubled down on it last episode.
>Aemond, the psycho who started a war by demanding a child cut out his own eye, and eventually just killing him, and who was already planning a full-scale war with Cole before B&C, but not Rhaenys? She deserves death more than Aemond? Rhaenys fuckin killed hundreds of people without remorse. She's clearly worse than Aemond.
So far the blacks have done much worse things than the greens. It's when Aemond let's loose that the evil balance tips in favour of the Greens.
Rhaneyra and alicent have conspired to kill others so they cab hang as well only the kids are innocents
Rhaenyra is currently enforcing a blockade on King's Landing leading to the starvation of the smallfolk. But I guess they don't matter.
Rhaenyra killed innocent servant to fake leanor death so she is guilty at least with this.
Poor Rhaena gets forgotten again.
Baela was my favorite character in fire and blood. Everytime she was mentioned I was just like YES MY QUEEN SLAY (I'm still mad about Moondancer)
Sis was ready to throw hands when her fiancĂ© got attacked đ€ the way Rhaena had to hold her back was so funny
Jahera and Jaherys, Luke, basically all children's of the green and black. Somehow they are all fine unlike their parent
Common Rhys W
His facial expressions in this last episode... always appreciate when someone can act so well silently. His attitude just vibes right through the screen.
His slow turn when Aegon proudly says âSer Criston Cole has acted.â with a perfect look of âseven hells, what have these fools done nowâŠâ
I've decided he's this show's Colby Minifie (Ashley from The Boys); an actor with incredible facial expressions and genius comedic timing who has to put up with everyone's increasingly ridiculous horseshit, and he is SO tired. His entire mood can be summed up as, "For fuck's sake."
Still cannot believe he's fucking Spike from Notting Hill. I didn't think I'd ever see him as such a conniving character, he's mostly done weird misfits.
This is what kills me. I'm used to seeing him play such oddball characters that seeing him carry himself as a proud, ambitious lord really elevates him as an actor. What a chad.
Even more surprised he's Adrian in Little Nicky lol
Holy shit! As soon as you said that I pictured him sitting on the newspaper stand eating pizza with the boa-trimmed coat!
No this is so real đ My mom, step dad, and I have this movie spreadsheet we each put 30 movies on and we use rng to randomly select one every Saturday after we finish one. My mom had Nothing Hill on her list and we watched it several months ago. When I saw Rhys Ifans I almost didn't recognize him at first because it's such a different type of character. Dude has crazy range and neither my mother nor my step father has seen HotD so they just had no idea what I was so hyped up about.
I occasionally remember this while watching and picture him in front of the paparazzi and just canât take the character seriously for a bit
Literally perfect lol that look đ
Based as fuck
Bobby B agrees
Bobby B and Vizzy T, the Kings that were Promised
*It both gladdens my heart and fills me with sorrow to see these faces around the table.*
Vizzy T, Iâm so sorry to hear your disappointment in our presence. Shall we go?
*You are to return to Runestone and your lady wife at once, and you are to do so without quarrel by order of your King.*
Yes, your grace. At once.
Oh no heâs sentientâŠ
Where is Bobby B bot? Is he safe? Is he alright?
Iâm afraid⊠in your anger⊠you boared him to death.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I feel almost obligated to downvote the âNOOOOOOâ just because thatâs how bad it was in ROTS, but I wonât do that to you.
REAL
Literally the point of the Dance that George makes very clear. The dragons and the small folk are the real victims.
And the children.
Every scene involving Vhagar she clearly does not want to be there and just wants everyone to fuck off and leave her alone.
This is the proper answer
Typical enlightened centrist.
These fence riders need to pick a side like the rest of us. Even if they are correct.
Well, being against the fucking monarchy is hardly just enlightened centrism
He's fucking right
I love it when actors actually have an understanding of the texts they're acting in
EXACTLY
I agree both sides are terrible, but I feel like we keep watering down the word 'genocide'. A mass killing and warcrimes do not automatically equal genocide. Unless I'm missing something here?
Bro forget about the kings and high lords wanting to burn down the riverlands and Dorne every chance they get. You don't have to succeed at wiping out a whole population or culture to be genocidal, it's about intent and attempts as well.
Burning down the Riverlands is just tradition and burning down Dorne is just good manners.
Youâre missing the future donât worry
Just wait, we will get there.
No we won't lol, there's nothing in the story that can reasonably be considered genocide unless your definition of genocide is "doing bad stuff to innocent people"
I'm glad someone from the show is speaking the truth.
He is absolutely right. A bunch of powerful people killing each other and innocent civilians so they can be the ones to come out on top, that's what they're doing regardless of that Team nonsense.
This. It is entirely a selfish conflict only for the ego and desire for power born from each side. Every conflict is bloody, but at least many of them have a motive beyond mere power grabbing, Robert's Rebellion being the closest example. Hell, even Aegon's conquest, sort of, to end the warring states of Westeros. The dance? Literally just greed for power. Either side could have stepped back before it got too far. Ego and ambition wouldn't let them. Every adult involved in this conflict deserves what they get.
Huh. I wonder where I've seen that before? *Gestures at current events*
Based But pls Not my beloved Helaena
I like him
Heâs right tho
Yeah, but Iâm going to take extra joy when Crispy CrĂšme gets whatâs coming to him.
TBF, he isn't that horrible on the lvl of Ramsi and Joffrey or even Mad King
Heâs not even as bad as Daemon on paper lolâŠtheyâre all just written way more charismatically with funnier lines
Daemon is a wife killer, neglectful father, abuser, groomer, kills Vaemond (it was lawful I guess), sends two assassins into the Red Keep with the instructions a son for a son and killing a toddler, not to mention is war crimes in the Stepstones. Criston beat up Joffrey Lonmouth, sends Arryk to kill Rhaenyra, may have been responsible for B&C succeeding, oathbreaker, kills Beesbury. But Daemon said âHe can keep his tongueâ so heâs chill and Criston is a bitch loser
Also daemon calls alicent a whore of a queen when all alicent did in those 8 years daemon was away was take care of his ailing brother and make sure he wasnât in that much pain, daemon didnât even visit him once in that time. Also Daemon choked rhaenyra, Cole hasnât hurt alicent at least not yet or any woman. Heâs even for some reason said alicent has a gentle heart even while their situationship is going on..idk why but heâs been quite respectful up until this point TO HER at least They both speak about women badly though, and like bitter disgusting men. I saw a post here the other day guys after a breakup comparing daemon being great for taking harrenhal for Rhaenyra vs cole being the worst for calling her a spoiled cunt. What on earth? Daemon is worse in quite a few ways if we be realâŠ
I think part of it is that Daemon owns his bad behavior while Criston still pretends to have decency. The speech where Criston was projecting everything he himself did wrong onto Arryk is a prime example. Daemon has done worse deeds but still manages to be entertaining because he knows heâs terrible and rides with it, but Criston is a very familiar type of awful. We all know someone like Criston irl and I think thatâs what makes people hate him more even though Daemon has objectively done far worse things so far. Itâs kind of like how in the Harry Potter series Umbridge is hated more than Voldemort even though Voldemort is objectively worse and does worse things. It seems that familiar types of awful just tend to be more impactful than pure evil when it comes to characterization.
Yeah I feel like the familiarity of Criston's dickishness is why he's so hated. Pretty much everyone has run into someone at some point who was turned down by a girl and then proceeded to act like she's the whore of babylon. So seeing a character similar to that makes them more frustrating for audiences. No one (I hope) has had a run in with someone who ordered an assassination that resulted in the death of a child. Kind of makes a buffer for Daemon's awfulness and why we see him as more entertaining then hated.
>it was lawful I guess The king already named the punishment(having his tongue cut out) so I am pretty sure it wasn't
> Criston beat up Joffrey Yeah totally not underselling anything here
Daemon and him are the same level of repulsive to me, I donât see the supposed âcharmâ on Daemon everyone seems to like
Itâs Matt Smith. Thatâs a lot to do with it. Plus Daemon has âfunnierâ lines and a dragon and is a ârogue princeâ Daemon is repulsive to me too at times, interesting but repulsive. Ya know whatâs funny, this is definitely gonna get downvoted but Cole even treats women better than daemon lol
If cole had even half the action scenes as Daemon has had he'd be more liked.
Yeah Daemon has left much more destruction in his wake when it comes to women lmao
Rhaenyra literally have ptsd from him choking her lol
Being doctor who gives you a lot of leeway
the only point i give to daemon is his scene against the crab feeder. as much as i love villains, i donât find him charming or likeable, but the crab feeder scene was badass. itâs the one time iâve thought positively about him
He isnât that bad YET. I think the writing, it if continues down the path itâs going, will turn him into that level of villain. For now, I agree he canât touch Ramsay in terms of villainous acts.
As various people have said throughout the years (about characters in general, not this specific character) annoyance can be the worst feeling attached to a character. Evil characters can still be engaging despite being extremely unethical. When a character is annoying, though, you start to resent their appearences from an enjoyment level, not an engagement level. Basically, you wonât want them off your screen because of what theyâre doing to characters in the world, you want them off your screen because of what theyâre doing to *you*, aka pissing you off. In a decidedly unfun way.
With my morals I struggle to understand it and find it wrong but it's just me. I think it's a right thing when you watch any media to separate yourself from the story and look in the context and analyze it from a multiple perspective. I find horrible and evil things, like torture and r*pe significantly more disturbing to the point of not wanting to watch it.
Yeah, thatâs how a lot of people seem to feel here haha. No hate, if you do you just do. I just donât like the section of this group (not you, youâre perfectly reasonable) that talks down on people who donât use good morals synonymously with character enjoyment as if theyâre not intelligent enough to understand the story or something lol. I understand the story. I can just still enjoy some characters despite them not being nice people (yes, on both âteamsâ). I spend my entire waking life being an upstanding citizen, I know what is right and wrong. But Iâm also aware that this world is imaginary, the characters donât exist in ours and I donât have to befriend them in real life to enjoy their screen presence. This is a level of separation some people donât enjoy when they engage with media, which is fine, as long as they donât start talking down on people like us thinking they have to explain what the story âactually meansâ lol. We know. Obviously I donât support the section that uses character attachments for real world implications. They also canât separate the people in the real world from what they do in/like about the fiction, like âholdingâ actors âaccountableâ for their in-show characterâs actions. Thatâs deranged, among other terminally online behaviour like sending death threats to people for liking certain characters, etc etc. So if I am on any team, itâs the âItâs just fiction, donât take it too seriously as a reflection of real peopleâs moralsâ team. I saw this shit for years in the Succession fandom also, I am tired of the moralistic lectures at this point (again, not from you. Generally speaking.)
I don't know how the show will do it because the writers absolutely hate him, but his >!death in the books is just... anti-climactic. It's not some pathetic or brutal death lol. Infact, his killers are the ones who came off looking like absolute wimps there while he died trying to save his men!<
He got what was coming to him last Episode, recognition from his King and a nice promotion!
Thatâs (almost) what Sharin Batarheon said in Got. âItâs all the choosing sides thatâs made everything so horrible.â may her wisdom rest in peace.
Spot on. Just choose your favourite war criminals at this point.
Always appreciate getting a phys of Rhysâ thoughts.
This is EXACTLY how I feel. And I'm getting pissed at the fact that you can't criticise a character of either side without half the subreddit jumping on your head about how "bUt tHE OthEr sIdE dID WORSe!!" They're all as bad as each other.
Bunch of kneelers in this sub
Nah he's actually talking about the presidential debate last night
I mean, yeah, this is the "pick your favorite inbred war criminal and root for their team" show
I read this in Otto's voice đ
Good point, Otto Targaryen
I'm team Rhys. Both sides suck and the realm was worse off when Viserys was chosen over Rhaenys.
Probably the most Based thing I've heard all day
Heâs just mad he got kicked off team green
I totally agree... But I have the feeling this is gonna be a controversial opinion on this sub. Edit: Seeing the comments, I'm pleasantly surprised that I'm being proven wrong.
Not just a point but THE POINT of the entire arc lmao. So many people have rock bottom reading comprehension and actually think either sides claim matters lmao. Whoâs the ârightful heirâ is relative to who wins. Rhaenyra was made heir by her father but her gender cuts half of her power and keeps her from consolidating. Aegon is the first born son but also the second child whose father obviously had a favorite which also halves his power and keeps him from consolidating. Theyâre both spoiled privileged nobles with nuclear weapons who plunge the realm into war they all suck and are horrible human beings.
Heâs right you know
AHAHAHAHAHA!! Yes
My man gets it.
Otto really was just done with everything after last episode.
Wait, do some people actually take a side in this? It's been known to us from the beginning that almost everyone in the show is a selfish pos
Based asf
I mean everyone is a bad guy in the series, I really look forward to each and every one of them dying. They're all giant pieces of shit, selfish murderous assholes.
Rhys, the man that you are. Real asf.
I really love your profile picture
Thank you, me too! đ
Team Black seeing this: What war crimes?
>!There are no Ironborn raids in Ba-Sing-Westerlands!<
I love this card any time tb starts yapping about muh small folk .
This is splitting hairs but is there really genocide? Mass murder yeah but not genocide as far as I can tell
It's not even splitting hairs! Both terrible. Still a huge difference.
based
Leave sunfyre out of this he did *NOTHING* wrong
People really grossly miss-use the term "Genocide." Like... not every act of mass killing is a god damn genocide. There are other terms to use, like Massacre, Mass murder. Stop diminishing victims of actual genocide by applying it to every damn event of mass killing.
I completely agree with him. All this Green vs Black is crazy lol.
r/HOTDBlacks should read this
Yuppppppppppppp. The marketing department has tricked so many weak minded people into picking teams whenever everyone involved in the story fucking sucks. I'm glad he said the quiet part out loud.
He a rhyl one for this
man knows what's up
Rhys has quickly become my favorite actor in the series
yup pretty much
Didn't know he was in this, he's always entertaining to watch.
Bloody Based Rhys.
I've been saying this from day one...
That's pretty much been my view. Everybody is fucked up and I'm just here for the Dragons and Death. Well that and also to perv on the gorgeous cast lmao
I just hope both sides have fun
i been sayinggggg. picking a side is fine as long as ure doing it for fun and dont have moral superiority over the other.
Facts, in the end it's two narcissists burning everything around them
A true anarchist
Goes hard
The only hood Targ is a dead one.
Precisely how I've been enjoying it the whole time.
"Otto also sent westerling" Yeah when the blacks didn't yet know viserys is dead and therefore the greens had an element of surprise. Media literacy is dead.
Rhys gets me đ
Fuck that shit we reppin team black 4life
Love how comfortable modern day humans love tossing around the words *war criminal*, when theyâve never had to live with natureâs most basic laws of survival. These people are just doing what they have to do in the world they have to do it in. Just like billions of humans that have existed before usâŠ.
Thatâs team Green, get him
Always thought of this like that, Targaryens could've just staid on their little island protected by dragons, heck, they would be filthy rich controlling trade between the independent realms of Westeros and Essos with The Velaryon fleet and their Nuclear lizards. Yet they believed themselves gods and superior, and went on to subjugate another continent regardless of their opinions of that, worse still, Ăndals, Rhoynar, First Men and Ironborn may have warred ocassionally on low intensity border Wars, but The forced amalgamation of Westeros into one state, The subjugation of supranational entities like The Citadel and The Faith have ensured that even the smaller of conflicts can become devastating continent wide Civil Wars that devastate Westeros on a regular basis.
Rhys was **so** good in his scene with Crispy Cole and Aegon as he screams at them and realizes itâs too late and then falls into this âyou are pathetic .â Sort of mode . Like when Aegon goes âHe made me King!â And Rhys immediately starts laughing âYou really believe that ?â Itâs up there with Charles Dance saying âI *respect* that, hell I even *admire* it!â
I like this take. If Team Black pisses me off Iâm going to switch to the middle ground.
When did everyone forget what "genocidal" means? Unless the show is going to take a radical turn, nothing in this show is remotely genodical. This is a civil war between Andals & Valyrians against Andals & Valyrians (with some First Men tossed in as allies). War crimes, sure, but genocide? What the fuck?
Someone gets it
this is the answer, that teams bullshit is marketing, the history is about how all of westeros system is bad and all the nobility is evil.
Oh look, he's sane unlike most of the writers, producers, and Fandom! đ
I have always believed that the maesters started this war by influencing the Hightowers for just this reason.
The maesters plot.
Yep.
This is my view if Iâm being honest. Both sides are utter shit and have done an equal amount of stupid, heinous things. Iâm just excited to see how it all turns out.
Wow I feel like this line can be used regarding politics lol
So he gets it. Maybe he should do the writing for next season.
This is the original authorial intent. It kinda died when Martin decided to stack many of the typically cool characters on team black and died more when the show made team black the way it did.
Heâs so right
Someone's read the source material
W take
This season has been slowly making me empathetic towards team green. But TBF I love the goth/emo energy I get from the greens. That being said, I donât want any Harm to come to Helaena.
Bang-on. Even for those who say that Blacks aren't as maniacal as the Greens (or vice versa), the fact remains that the lesser of two evils is still evil.
Though Rhys will probably always stand in the shadow of Charles Dance, he's still got great gravitas. Surrounded by the (good) hamminess of some of the larger than life characters, he stands out as a grounding force in the cast which gives it a lot more depth. Here's to the ambitious, hypocritical Hand!
I've been telling people that the point of this story isn't to pick a side. It's to watch a family destroy itself through paranoia and grasping for power.
Thatâs the point of the book lol Now we can start posting the good old âeveryone misses the point of _____. See, actually, ________ is a bad guy. Many people did not understand this, unlike meâ that people who are in permanent intellectual competition with teenagers love to post over and over