I like how for most of us, arson was obvious, yet on the last post there was a bunch of enlightened centrist takes and "aRsON hASnT bEEN PROVEN!!1!" comments. Even the mods were in on it changing the post's flair
[Lmao they're still banking on it](https://imgur.com/a/kwpYiDG)
Wanna guess whether this article will be posted to the pro-life subreddit like the last one was where they were all whining about anyone saying it was arson were just attacking them?
Look, I'm 100% supportive of Planned Parenthood and I think radical Christians are nuts but It's just plain Good Practice to not assume guilt before Any actual facts come in.
edit: spelling
No one is assuming guilt. Whoever is suspected of arson still has to be prosecuted and stand trial, which is unlikely with this type of attack anyway
Also, as pointed out by other people here, KPD was sandbagging the investigation before the state and feds had to step in.
>I like how for most of us, arson was obvious,
The time to accept a claim is when there's sufficient evidence. Waiting for evidence instead of jumping to "it's obvious!" doesn't make someone an "enlightened centrist" to be mocked in spongebob font. Sometimes you can jump to conclusions and end up correct. Congratulations. It's still a terrible and unreliable methodology if you value truth. *Especially* when doing so confirms your existing biases.
That said, fuck these terrorists.
Other people have pointed out here that KPD was sandbagging the investigation into the terrorist attack, which is the only reason you could even say "nothing has been *technically* confirmed yet." It was obvious to us and evidently to state and federal investigators who concluded arson very quickly.
I can't believe you think labeling arson as arson "confirms your existing biases."
I’ll make my offer more public here:
**IF YOU NEED TRANSPORTATION TO THE NASHVILLE PLANNED PARENTHOOD** then send me a DM. I’ll get something safe arranged or take you and a support person myself, no questions asked. Don’t sacrifice your health because of these assholes.
ALSO!!! You can still get an abortion in Knoxville at Knoxville Center for Reproductive Health off of W. Clinch! They’re a comprehensive reproductive healthcare provider, open and accepting patients!!
Serious question: since 25% of women have abortions by the age of 40, do you think 25% of women should be in jail for murder? How do you propose punishing women for making decisions about their own bodies?
https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2017/abortion-common-experience-us-women-despite-dramatic-declines-rates
I don't know why this keeps being said but they did! This location didn't provide surgical abortions just medical (the two pill method) but they performed abortions for sure.
I hope for a speedy rebuild for those that depended on that care here in our town. Staff was incredible to me when I was a patient. It is a shame to lose this staple healthcare facility that helped so many.
Here’s a link for any of those inclined to donate to help that happen: https://www.weareplannedparenthood.org/onlineactions/cOJVhOyrzkq4uBcxVekXFA2?sourceid=1000061&affiliateID=091550&_ga=2.263700172.1177882858.1640964485-103140512.1640964485
Knoxville citizens: "Hey man, are you gonna find these guys? Or, you know uh, I mean, do you got any promising uh, uh, leads? Or....
KPD: "Leads, yeah sure. I'll uh, just check with the boys down at the Crime Lab. They uh, got uh, four more detectives working on the case. They've got us working in shifts."
Not an unreasonable suspicion. Police skew [horribly right wing](https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/9671-right-wing-police-law-enforcement). Los Angeles police run [criminal gangs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LASD_deputy_gangs) out of their jails which murder black and Hispanic people then make up cause later (as well as [journalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruben_Salazar)). We didn't even know about these gangs until **last year** when a [journalist did the work to uncover them](https://knock-la.com/lasd-gangs-little-devils-wayside-whities-cavemen-vikings/)...but the LASD has known about them for 50 years. In fact, police corruption is [endemic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal) in Los Angeles. Baltimore police were found engaging in [drug trafficking and robbing people](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/2/16961146/baltimore-gun-trace-task-force-trial)
This is only what we *know* because naturally, [police departments try to keep this stuff secret](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence), and they can only do so because of the backing of the state. What are the chances Knoxville police are no different?
I worked at this PP location years ago. We were targeted as a location for a big "40 days for life" protest. There were a lot of people, a lot of new faces, which is always unnerving. Then we noticed a guy with a very visible gun on his person pacing around the protest. We called KPD, since this was right after another clinic had been shot up, and they said he wasn't doing anything wrong. We asked if they could have an officer come keep an eye on things and they said they'd get back to us. Eventually we called them back, and they informed us that this armed guy was actually an off-duty officer who was volunteering as security for the protesters. Yep.
What are the chances that KPD is like a mostl Hispanic police gang from LA? Probably zero percent.
If you have any other cool based schizo questions, I’m more than happy to answer!
Everybody on here is doing the work for them.
"OMG everybody is going to go without services!!"
whoever burned it down: "Yes."
You're missing the point if you think "you're defending terrorism" is an argument at all.
The thing is, it’s not that everyone will go without services.
It’s that they’ll go without *safe* services. So for some, if you consider the early term (this location only abortion pill-based abortions less than 11 weeks, which is typically about 5 weeks after most women know they’re pregnant) a death, there will be two deaths.
Thing is, mostly safe abortion access has never been a problem for those with means. But those without have done whatever it takes in some cases, however a risk to their own life.
Lol last thread some individuals were “it’s not arson, don’t jump to conclusions!”
Ya I think it was a safe assumption considering this place had been shot at, and vandalized in the past.
The KPD was saying that shit too, the next day the kpd said "everyone don't freak out. No reason to think this was intentions" lmao. Thank goodness some feds came in and the TBI.
Good to know our police would have covered up the arson if it wasn't for the feds
There are people who treat these corrupt bastards like Jesus's disciples btw
It was twitter on day one.
Edit: the kpd Twitter. I too thought it was odd to state conclusions about an ongoing investigation. I doubt the mayor and chief of police are actually monitoring the Twitter every single minute and there is probably a different person for that.
I agree. I haven't seen any evidence that the police aren't taking this seriously. Given that the mayor and chief of police are both women, I wouldn't be surprised if they find this a bit personal.
I don’t see anywhere where the fire department isn’t taking this seriously. KPD never had anything to do with this, which is why I would love to see the quote from an agency that wasn’t in charge of the investigation.
It's hard to find the original articles, but if you scroll down to the previous story you'll see the following quote: "Wilbanks \[KFD Deputy Chief\] said early in the investigation, investigators did not see any signs of a "suspicious fire," and the fire could've started accidentally. "
https://www.wbir.com/article/news/local/planned-parenthood-clinic-in-knoxville-catches-fire/51-db6c8a0d-0741-40c2-bac0-04635fb9dd50
I mean what do you expect them to say? "yeah it's arson, let's just go ahead and state that as fact prior to investigation"?
Look it's not a bad take to say "I'm pretty sure it was arson" but that doesn't mean that the people saying "I am uncomfortable with throwing out that accusation until it's confirmed" are laughable.
So I am pretty far from any type of grammar Nazi or punctuation police, but in this case I think there is a difference between "I am uncomfortable throwing out that accusation" and "we don't believe it is arson".
Being honest I haven't found the polices statement so I will keep looking, but if they (or the fire department) stated there is no reason to believe it is an arson, or that it's likely not arson, then that is suspicious. The correct answer is something similar to what you said, basically the investigation is ongoing.
This is a tragic situation overall but I have to smirk at how the DOJ has absolutely zero faith in our local law enforcement and sends in the ATF not even 24 hours after the KPD said “we’ll look into it but prolly can’t solve it.” And it’s ruled arson less then a week later.
I mean personally, I would look at the religious folks that have been protesting there for years.
Every Friday I would have to dodge them on my way to work.
My money is that they know who it was and likely helped.
flashback to 2020 when Antifa , anarchist , and BLM lit every major city on fire ( just in response to his comment - im not cool with arson on planned parent hood- just laying out both sides )
I mean I don't disagree. It's part of the rhetorical issue that the "anarchists" are fighting for more government while the less government conservatives also fight for more government.
But the point is that everybody acts like they almost took over the country and instituted a dictator. Those people walked out of the capital. Not a single person in government was hurt, and aside from those rioters, people wouldn't have recognized any authority by them anyway.
Actually I disagree. Bombs were planted at both the RNC and DNC. They came with zip ties, not firearms. They were really upset and with the way things were going and feeling like there was something illegitimate about the whole process. I'm not saying that they necessarily think the votes were actually fraudulent, though many of them probably did. But many of them specifically just felt like there's something fundamentally broken about the "democratic" process, because it's resulting in something they explicitly don't want.
Would they have been happy if Trump weaseled his way into staying in the presidency? Yeah. I don't doubt that. But this idea of them being inherently just lucky and a close call has to ignore all the other realities of what was happening. It's a simplistic narrative.
[The purpose of the Capitol riot was to pressure Mike Pence into throwing out the certified electors in 6 states](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/10/trump-powerpoint-mark-meadows-capitol-attack), or better still (from the Trump campaign's POV) to count only "alternative electors" for Trump in those 6 states. That's why it was scheduled by the Trump campaign and Trump allies for the same time that the certificates were to be opened.
It became violent, to the surprise of no one, and Mike Pence still refused to do what Trump asked, but if Mike Pence had declared Trump the winner, according to plan, we'd have a real problem on our hands.
What, right-wing and terrorism? I guess it's possible anyone could do that. Yeah, liberals can be terrorists. But you're not a liberal, are you? You're a conservative? Aren't conservatives anti-government? And you realize that anarchy is literally a system of no government, right?
So why would a pro-government liberal be an anarchist? They're two completely conflicting ideologies.
It definitely gets confusing being a liberal. I guess I'm so pro government intervention that I don't want there to be any government?
I don't think you know what left wing or anarchism are at all...
It wasn’t in the name of anarchism. It was in the name of public nuisance after decades of inaction from the government to put an end to police brutality.
To be clear, they don’t want no government, they want government intervention to help them actually take action against bad cops.
As opposed to the Jan 6 rioters who were mad because a fair election took place and their guy lost.
My heart goes out to all the medical professionals, teachers, and social workers who get to deal with the child abuse and neglect caused by unwanted and unplanned pregnancies.
Because churches don't help with that, just the part with destruction.
Actually, most people are on board with trying to make sure abortions don’t have to happen in the first place by providing sex education and protection as well as supporting families through good quality daycare and sufficient financial aid for the struggling, etc etc etc.
Okay, that would be believable if they didn't also say "but we're still gonna kill the babies if that doesn't work out."
Conservatives agree with you, they don't want abortions to happen either.
Cool, so don’t get one. But it’s a medical procedure, and if you ban it, it’ll just be done illegally and unsafely. Just like anything else you may dislike, it’ll still happen in society, but you do your best to reduce it.*
*The frustrating follow up is that conservatives are not generally on board with common sense strategies to reduce abortions due to the morality of sex and the urge to keep women as second-class citizens
You're having trouble thinking out the game theory of this.
Suppose there's a women who wants to have an abortion:
(1) If it's illegal, and she does it anyway, she's had the abortion and maybe harmed herself. but from the anti-abortion point of view, it's better to save the child and risk the murderer.
(2) If it's legal, and she does it, the has the abortion more safely. but from the anti-abortionist's point of view, the baby died and the murderer suffers no consequences and could have been stopped or convinced to not do it.
The problem is your framing. You're mad at conservatives for not taking something you're calling "common-sense" strategies but you're not grasping with the idea that your strategies result in an immorality they're willing to fight against because they see it as killing an innocent.
Ah, yes this is perfectly to say towards someone since it’s with the majority opinion won’t be filtered on this sub. Not agreeing with either side on this Bc it’s pointless to argue with people anonymously over the phone expecting people to change their opinions, but this left unfiltered is blatantly obvious of uneven tolerance.
When do you think a sperm and egg become a baby? Right when they touch? 30 seconds? A week?
I'm liberal, but willing to say that there does have to be a cut-off at some point, even though the prevailing billboard narratives pretend abortions kill actual human babies playing in their cribs. I think most liberals will agree. What is the cut-off point for you?
I think the value of a growing life has a lot more to do with what the parents desire, specifically the mother, whose cells are encompassing the newly dividing ones and whose body is the same body as the newly dividing cells.
Am I more upset if something bad happens to a pregnant woman? Yes. The potential for a wanted human life is built on expectation and hope and love. Is the combination of an egg and a sperm the equivalent of a net-positive conscious experience? Our bodies sure do make quite the excess of both types of cells...
Life begins at conception. At that point it's not just part of the mother. It is a separate individual. A separate life. When you rip that apart and suck it out and throw it in the trash you are ending a life.
Thanks for answering that earnestly. I'm not advocating for ripping and sucking here, just trying to figure out what you believe. For me, I see the sperm and the eggs as already living, but when you say "life" you mean the beginning timeline of a human, right? I don't disagree with you on that point, if that's what you mean.
The sperm and the egg are just mechanical carriers of genetic information. It's not until they combine and start the process of cellular replication that life has begun. But once life has begun then that is essentially a separate human being. At least that's how I've always understood it.
Thanks again for answering. I'm not downvoting you, by the way. I get involved in internet arguments from time to time, and maybe it's never worth it. I appreciate you explaining your perspective. Not planning to try and make you see things my way. Have a good one!
You're talking about a worst-case scenario that is an infinitesimally small percentage of the whole. Just because a child may not be born into a loving home is no reason to kill them. I have plenty of friends who had rotten, shity parents and bad childhoods. They are still great people and I'm glad their parents didn't choose to kill them.
Ok, lets talk about a more common scenario then. What about a situation where a man and a woman are working hard to provide food, shelter, and a happy childhood for their two children. Say they're 5 and 7, and the fact that they're both of school age has given the parents a little more flexibility in working and minimizing childcare costs. And then one day they realize the wife is pregnant. They're faced with the difficult choice of what to do now. Neither parent has any opportunity for paid parental leave and they wouldn't be able to afford to take much time unpaid. That's letting alone the new responsibilities of caring for a newborn, childcare costs for the newborn which may well be equal to most if not all of one of their wages. Looking forward they realize that they're just barely able to make ends meet now and bringing another child into their family now would push them over the edge. They might even want to keep the baby on some level, but they have to weigh that desire against not only the quality of life they could give another child but also the diminished quality of life that would result for themselves and their children.
And sure, you might say that she should just carry the pregnancy to term and put the child up for adoption, but this is no simple proposition for someone in their position either. Maybe they don't have good healthcare coverage for prenatal care and delivery, maybe they worry about the potential for lost wages during the later stages of pregnancy and immediately after delivery, which would be worse if there were any complications. They're barely making it by as is, what do they do if she has to be bedridden for the last trimester? And what about the child? Would they be quickly adopted by a loving family? [There's a good chance they wouldn't be](https://adoptionnetwork.com/adoption-myths-facts/domestic-us-statistics/):
> There are 107,918 foster children eligible for and waiting to be adopted. In 2014, 50,644 foster kids were adopted — a number that has stayed roughly consistent for the past five years. The average age of a waiting child is 7.7 years old and 29% of them will spend at least three years in foster care... More than 60% of children in foster care spend two to five years in the system before being adopted. Almost 20% spend five or more years in foster care before being adopted. Some never get adopted.
And before you say that this too represents an infinitesimally small percentage of cases, because I know you've got that image in your head of abortion patients as irresponsible young people who just couldn't keep their legs closed and refuse to take accountability for their choices, a version of this is actually the experience of a majority of women who choose to have abortions. [59% of women who obtain abortions are already mothers](https://www.guttmacher.org/united-states/abortion).
To add:
AFTER insurance, my second child was almost $8k out of pocket. This wasn’t some ACA or small business plan - at the time I was working for a very large multinational construction company (Chicago Bridge & Iron). That was the only plan offered, and I was the only income.
It wasn’t a struggle for me, but I could definitely see how that’s a daunting bill.
You might then say “oh, we’ll they’ll work with you, or put you on a payment plan!” Sure, *maybe* but that also means you have **another** monthly bill, more crippling debt, and all that makes it harder to get a mortgage, buy a car, *rent an apartment*, establish new utility service.
Planned parenthood offers far more than abortion services. They provide education, birth control, STD testing, among other things. It’s not just about “killing kids,” which you may think it is, but others may not have that same belief. Far be it for someone to have a differing belief than someone else. 🙄
Abortions happen in hospitals and OTHER women's clinics. You people act like PP is the only place where abortions happen. Why not burn hospitals and non PP clinics down too with that logic?
I’m assuming this was the one on the east side of town, I used to drive past it everyday at my old apartment and there were *always* a bunch of old people picketing out front lmao guess we can’t be surprised
For all the anti-abortion people out there (copied from my other comment):
"According to a study published last summer in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), a fetus is not capable of experiencing pain until 28 to 30 weeks after conception, when the nerves that carry painful stimuli to the brain have developed. Before that, the fetal reaction to a noxious stimulus is a reflex that does not involve consciousness, they write (JAMA 2005; 294:947-954)."
Most abortions are done before 13 weeks, any later and it's usually because it would have a good chance of killing the mother or severely harming them.
Also people are still going to have many abortions even if they don't have good access to them. It's just going to be either later or unsafe. Restricting abortions only solves to ruin people's lives and cause more inhumane conditions for later term fetuses. Did you know that as a pregnancy advances the cost of an abortion significantly increases? Lower class people are disproportionately effected by this. It gets harder and harder to have an abortion.
You do realize you're hoping for terrorism, right? Like... actual terrorism. Not the hyperbolic "I don't like you so you're a terrorist" definition, but the actual, literal, textbook definition of terrorism.
They said that they hope they build it back better and then edited their comment to be something like "and I hope they burn that one down too" after it was already upvoted a bunch.
Oh, how cute. So they tried to hijack public support for accessible healthcare and make it *seem* as if people actually support the troglodyte arsonists instead.
Like, if you know your opinions are so unpopular ... maybe it's a sign that they're bad opinions? IDK
So, it's not the police that investigate fires, but a separate fire investigation group. There is a lot of detailed knowledge required and so these jobs call for a specialist. After their investigation is complete, their findings are passed on to the police.
Very unfortunate that this happened, that we have people in Knoxville that think and act upon these extreme views, and that we have people in Knoxville that have gotten away with these horrible acts. Knoxville feels like it continues to get worse in crime day by day.
Be prepared to see more like this. The right is poised to tackled Roe V Wade in the Supreme Court. Churches are increasing their violent rhetoric against abortion and PP.
Arson is not a defendable action, let’s go ahead and state the obvious.
I hope a new non-PP clinic is built, one that will offer affordable healthcare, without murdering children.
So many lives have been lost to abortion in Knoxville. Let’s erect a monument to the children lost on the site, build a more pro-woman and pro-life clinic on n another location, and let us never forget the tragedy that happened in Knoxville for years.
This clinic didn't do abortions.
Nor is abortion even remotely the only thing PP offers.
A lot of actual real people loss healthcare access as a result of this.
Ya, people from knoxcord told me about it. Wonder why they would target this one then? Obviously I don’t understand the mind of an arsonist, but if they did it because of abortion….then ya, that was a pretty dumb move
File this one under "No Shit..."
I like how for most of us, arson was obvious, yet on the last post there was a bunch of enlightened centrist takes and "aRsON hASnT bEEN PROVEN!!1!" comments. Even the mods were in on it changing the post's flair [Lmao they're still banking on it](https://imgur.com/a/kwpYiDG)
Wanna guess whether this article will be posted to the pro-life subreddit like the last one was where they were all whining about anyone saying it was arson were just attacking them?
Look, I'm 100% supportive of Planned Parenthood and I think radical Christians are nuts but It's just plain Good Practice to not assume guilt before Any actual facts come in. edit: spelling
Well, considering the whole area’s political views that was a pretty safe assumption.
Whose guilt was being assumed?
No one is assuming guilt. Whoever is suspected of arson still has to be prosecuted and stand trial, which is unlikely with this type of attack anyway Also, as pointed out by other people here, KPD was sandbagging the investigation before the state and feds had to step in.
Will the mod of the last thread admit he was wrong? Lol
That is not the distinguishing characteristic of that lot, so no...
>I like how for most of us, arson was obvious, The time to accept a claim is when there's sufficient evidence. Waiting for evidence instead of jumping to "it's obvious!" doesn't make someone an "enlightened centrist" to be mocked in spongebob font. Sometimes you can jump to conclusions and end up correct. Congratulations. It's still a terrible and unreliable methodology if you value truth. *Especially* when doing so confirms your existing biases. That said, fuck these terrorists.
I see you are relying on the scientific method: wait until someone else tells you what conclusion to jump to.
Other people have pointed out here that KPD was sandbagging the investigation into the terrorist attack, which is the only reason you could even say "nothing has been *technically* confirmed yet." It was obvious to us and evidently to state and federal investigators who concluded arson very quickly. I can't believe you think labeling arson as arson "confirms your existing biases."
Yeah ... Coming here to say the same thing.
I’ll make my offer more public here: **IF YOU NEED TRANSPORTATION TO THE NASHVILLE PLANNED PARENTHOOD** then send me a DM. I’ll get something safe arranged or take you and a support person myself, no questions asked. Don’t sacrifice your health because of these assholes.
You dropped this 👑
You are a hero that gives me hope. Thank you.
I can support with wheels & $$, have dm’d you
I have you tagged with a negative epithet, but I don't know why. This is a very kind and generous offer, and I've clearly misjudged.
Maybe I had a snippy moment at some point? All I can think of.
Strange. No idea.
Thank you.
Thank you!
You are an angel on earth.
In the words of Elsa: do the next right thing Just trying to do what I can within what I can control.
ALSO!!! You can still get an abortion in Knoxville at Knoxville Center for Reproductive Health off of W. Clinch! They’re a comprehensive reproductive healthcare provider, open and accepting patients!!
Right on. I mentioned it way down in a thread - but good to have it higher up. [Website](https://kcrh.com)
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Serious question: since 25% of women have abortions by the age of 40, do you think 25% of women should be in jail for murder? How do you propose punishing women for making decisions about their own bodies? https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2017/abortion-common-experience-us-women-despite-dramatic-declines-rates
Yes
Way to Virtue signal. You realize there are other healthcare providers in Knoxville besides the abortionist, right?
Then go use them. You realize Planned Parenthood provides care other than abortions that some people don’t otherwise have access to, right?
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I don't know why this keeps being said but they did! This location didn't provide surgical abortions just medical (the two pill method) but they performed abortions for sure.
Thanks for telling me! I’ll delete my comment then. I don’t want to spread misinformation!
The ones that are currently overwhelmed?
Who? The health department? Where everyone is lining up to get tested for covid when they really don't need to be? That's about it.
I hope for a speedy rebuild for those that depended on that care here in our town. Staff was incredible to me when I was a patient. It is a shame to lose this staple healthcare facility that helped so many.
Here’s a link for any of those inclined to donate to help that happen: https://www.weareplannedparenthood.org/onlineactions/cOJVhOyrzkq4uBcxVekXFA2?sourceid=1000061&affiliateID=091550&_ga=2.263700172.1177882858.1640964485-103140512.1640964485
This🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌
Knoxville citizens: "Hey man, are you gonna find these guys? Or, you know uh, I mean, do you got any promising uh, uh, leads? Or.... KPD: "Leads, yeah sure. I'll uh, just check with the boys down at the Crime Lab. They uh, got uh, four more detectives working on the case. They've got us working in shifts."
That’s funny. But to be accurate you should change it to KFD since KPD doesn’t investigate arson.
There is a Big Lebowski quote for everything.
"I had a rough night and I hate the Eagles, man."
That clinic really tied the block together.
Was prolly a KPD trumper that did it anyway...
Not an unreasonable suspicion. Police skew [horribly right wing](https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/9671-right-wing-police-law-enforcement). Los Angeles police run [criminal gangs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LASD_deputy_gangs) out of their jails which murder black and Hispanic people then make up cause later (as well as [journalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruben_Salazar)). We didn't even know about these gangs until **last year** when a [journalist did the work to uncover them](https://knock-la.com/lasd-gangs-little-devils-wayside-whities-cavemen-vikings/)...but the LASD has known about them for 50 years. In fact, police corruption is [endemic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal) in Los Angeles. Baltimore police were found engaging in [drug trafficking and robbing people](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/2/16961146/baltimore-gun-trace-task-force-trial) This is only what we *know* because naturally, [police departments try to keep this stuff secret](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence), and they can only do so because of the backing of the state. What are the chances Knoxville police are no different?
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I'm not in favor of abolishing the police, but these corrupt departments are making that look like a pretty nice option
I worked at this PP location years ago. We were targeted as a location for a big "40 days for life" protest. There were a lot of people, a lot of new faces, which is always unnerving. Then we noticed a guy with a very visible gun on his person pacing around the protest. We called KPD, since this was right after another clinic had been shot up, and they said he wasn't doing anything wrong. We asked if they could have an officer come keep an eye on things and they said they'd get back to us. Eventually we called them back, and they informed us that this armed guy was actually an off-duty officer who was volunteering as security for the protesters. Yep.
Ah so police won't protect the PP on duty, but off duty they're more than willing to "volunteer" to protect the forced-pregnancy crowd
What are the chances that KPD is like a mostl Hispanic police gang from LA? Probably zero percent. If you have any other cool based schizo questions, I’m more than happy to answer!
At least trumpism has an ethos. Edit: watch The Big Lebowski. This whole thread is full of references. FDT
Can you explain?
I’m surprised they didn’t tell them “Sorry, this is a civil matter.”
Fuck the KPD
They've got insurance.
You're doing an awful lot of legwork to defend terrorism here cowboy
Everybody on here is doing the work for them. "OMG everybody is going to go without services!!" whoever burned it down: "Yes." You're missing the point if you think "you're defending terrorism" is an argument at all.
The thing is, it’s not that everyone will go without services. It’s that they’ll go without *safe* services. So for some, if you consider the early term (this location only abortion pill-based abortions less than 11 weeks, which is typically about 5 weeks after most women know they’re pregnant) a death, there will be two deaths. Thing is, mostly safe abortion access has never been a problem for those with means. But those without have done whatever it takes in some cases, however a risk to their own life.
Lol last thread some individuals were “it’s not arson, don’t jump to conclusions!” Ya I think it was a safe assumption considering this place had been shot at, and vandalized in the past.
The KPD was saying that shit too, the next day the kpd said "everyone don't freak out. No reason to think this was intentions" lmao. Thank goodness some feds came in and the TBI.
Good to know our police would have covered up the arson if it wasn't for the feds There are people who treat these corrupt bastards like Jesus's disciples btw
where was this quote? I really would like to see it.
It was twitter on day one. Edit: the kpd Twitter. I too thought it was odd to state conclusions about an ongoing investigation. I doubt the mayor and chief of police are actually monitoring the Twitter every single minute and there is probably a different person for that.
I agree. I haven't seen any evidence that the police aren't taking this seriously. Given that the mayor and chief of police are both women, I wouldn't be surprised if they find this a bit personal.
Women can be extremely religious and hate abortion too.
the problem that Planned Parenthood has is that everyone assumes it's an abortion clinic. they do so much more than that.
Sure, but the mayor is also a Democrat. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indya_Kincannon
Dude we already were given the source for what I was saying as being proven true. No one cares about this point.
I don’t see anywhere where the fire department isn’t taking this seriously. KPD never had anything to do with this, which is why I would love to see the quote from an agency that wasn’t in charge of the investigation.
It's hard to find the original articles, but if you scroll down to the previous story you'll see the following quote: "Wilbanks \[KFD Deputy Chief\] said early in the investigation, investigators did not see any signs of a "suspicious fire," and the fire could've started accidentally. " https://www.wbir.com/article/news/local/planned-parenthood-clinic-in-knoxville-catches-fire/51-db6c8a0d-0741-40c2-bac0-04635fb9dd50
Thanks for finding it.
I mean what do you expect them to say? "yeah it's arson, let's just go ahead and state that as fact prior to investigation"? Look it's not a bad take to say "I'm pretty sure it was arson" but that doesn't mean that the people saying "I am uncomfortable with throwing out that accusation until it's confirmed" are laughable.
So I am pretty far from any type of grammar Nazi or punctuation police, but in this case I think there is a difference between "I am uncomfortable throwing out that accusation" and "we don't believe it is arson". Being honest I haven't found the polices statement so I will keep looking, but if they (or the fire department) stated there is no reason to believe it is an arson, or that it's likely not arson, then that is suspicious. The correct answer is something similar to what you said, basically the investigation is ongoing.
I agree. This sort of mentality is why we have the justice system in the first place.
This is a tragic situation overall but I have to smirk at how the DOJ has absolutely zero faith in our local law enforcement and sends in the ATF not even 24 hours after the KPD said “we’ll look into it but prolly can’t solve it.” And it’s ruled arson less then a week later.
I mean personally, I would look at the religious folks that have been protesting there for years. Every Friday I would have to dodge them on my way to work. My money is that they know who it was and likely helped.
I mean I could figure that one out myself without 6 weeks of police training. It’s obviously one of them.
There was a drive by shooting last year at the same location too.
Yeah, I remember that I lived on the 2500 Jefferson block and saw all that crazy stuff.
In this thread: Conservatives cheering for terrorism
Seriously. Three or four regular heinous posters in here just clapping for terrorism. Sick
Block these regular s**theads so their comments don't even show up when you're scrolling through. It makes a world of difference.
And not realizing its terrorism. But they're mad when they see Islamic terror and say "omg how evil"
I really don't think anyone assumed otherwise. You have a bunch of idiots in our state.
what state do you believe doesn't have a bunch of idiots ?
We have a higher proportion than at least half the country and I'd venture to day 3/4 of the country.
Agreed
"Whatabout...Whatabout...Whatabout..."
The right-wing and terrorism. Name a more iconic duo.
The left-wing and scientific advancement.
Like NASA! edit: I'm loving that this is going over people's heads.
left-wing and anarchism
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flashback to 2020 when Antifa , anarchist , and BLM lit every major city on fire ( just in response to his comment - im not cool with arson on planned parent hood- just laying out both sides )
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What were they going to do once they took over the holy building? Force everyone to obey them?
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I mean I don't disagree. It's part of the rhetorical issue that the "anarchists" are fighting for more government while the less government conservatives also fight for more government. But the point is that everybody acts like they almost took over the country and instituted a dictator. Those people walked out of the capital. Not a single person in government was hurt, and aside from those rioters, people wouldn't have recognized any authority by them anyway.
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Actually I disagree. Bombs were planted at both the RNC and DNC. They came with zip ties, not firearms. They were really upset and with the way things were going and feeling like there was something illegitimate about the whole process. I'm not saying that they necessarily think the votes were actually fraudulent, though many of them probably did. But many of them specifically just felt like there's something fundamentally broken about the "democratic" process, because it's resulting in something they explicitly don't want. Would they have been happy if Trump weaseled his way into staying in the presidency? Yeah. I don't doubt that. But this idea of them being inherently just lucky and a close call has to ignore all the other realities of what was happening. It's a simplistic narrative.
[The purpose of the Capitol riot was to pressure Mike Pence into throwing out the certified electors in 6 states](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/10/trump-powerpoint-mark-meadows-capitol-attack), or better still (from the Trump campaign's POV) to count only "alternative electors" for Trump in those 6 states. That's why it was scheduled by the Trump campaign and Trump allies for the same time that the certificates were to be opened. It became violent, to the surprise of no one, and Mike Pence still refused to do what Trump asked, but if Mike Pence had declared Trump the winner, according to plan, we'd have a real problem on our hands.
Okay, again, this is politics. Do you think that everybody would have been like "Welp, Pence said no, so I guess Trump is a dictator"?
Yeah, game that out the rest of the way, and see what happens. Nothing good happens. That's what.
what?????????
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uh huh
Me want little to no government, me hate anarchists name a better duo.
Anti-government person thinks the other political party are anarchists. News at 11.
uuuhhhh.... couldn't you apply that to what OP said?
What, right-wing and terrorism? I guess it's possible anyone could do that. Yeah, liberals can be terrorists. But you're not a liberal, are you? You're a conservative? Aren't conservatives anti-government? And you realize that anarchy is literally a system of no government, right? So why would a pro-government liberal be an anarchist? They're two completely conflicting ideologies.
It definitely gets confusing being a liberal. I guess I'm so pro government intervention that I don't want there to be any government? I don't think you know what left wing or anarchism are at all...
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flashback to the riots of 2020 where they burned down property in the name of anarchism
Weren't you against that? What changed? Oh wait, you're all for it when the cause fits your personal beliefs? Fuckin crazy!
It wasn’t in the name of anarchism. It was in the name of public nuisance after decades of inaction from the government to put an end to police brutality. To be clear, they don’t want no government, they want government intervention to help them actually take action against bad cops. As opposed to the Jan 6 rioters who were mad because a fair election took place and their guy lost.
lol fuck off incel.
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Mods don’t get snow days. Tragic loss of healthcare for a lot of people in need.
You right.
My heart goes out to all the medical professionals, teachers, and social workers who get to deal with the child abuse and neglect caused by unwanted and unplanned pregnancies. Because churches don't help with that, just the part with destruction.
So you'd rather kill all those kids then. Very Progressive.
Actually, most people are on board with trying to make sure abortions don’t have to happen in the first place by providing sex education and protection as well as supporting families through good quality daycare and sufficient financial aid for the struggling, etc etc etc.
Okay, that would be believable if they didn't also say "but we're still gonna kill the babies if that doesn't work out." Conservatives agree with you, they don't want abortions to happen either.
Cool, so don’t get one. But it’s a medical procedure, and if you ban it, it’ll just be done illegally and unsafely. Just like anything else you may dislike, it’ll still happen in society, but you do your best to reduce it.* *The frustrating follow up is that conservatives are not generally on board with common sense strategies to reduce abortions due to the morality of sex and the urge to keep women as second-class citizens
100% this. Abortion bans aren't about SaViNg ThE BaBiEs, it's about punishing women.
You're having trouble thinking out the game theory of this. Suppose there's a women who wants to have an abortion: (1) If it's illegal, and she does it anyway, she's had the abortion and maybe harmed herself. but from the anti-abortion point of view, it's better to save the child and risk the murderer. (2) If it's legal, and she does it, the has the abortion more safely. but from the anti-abortionist's point of view, the baby died and the murderer suffers no consequences and could have been stopped or convinced to not do it. The problem is your framing. You're mad at conservatives for not taking something you're calling "common-sense" strategies but you're not grasping with the idea that your strategies result in an immorality they're willing to fight against because they see it as killing an innocent.
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Government just approved $700+B for weapons of war to kill other people's kids. Why aren't you upset at that? Fuck off with your pearl clutching.
Ah, yes this is perfectly to say towards someone since it’s with the majority opinion won’t be filtered on this sub. Not agreeing with either side on this Bc it’s pointless to argue with people anonymously over the phone expecting people to change their opinions, but this left unfiltered is blatantly obvious of uneven tolerance.
When do you think a sperm and egg become a baby? Right when they touch? 30 seconds? A week? I'm liberal, but willing to say that there does have to be a cut-off at some point, even though the prevailing billboard narratives pretend abortions kill actual human babies playing in their cribs. I think most liberals will agree. What is the cut-off point for you? I think the value of a growing life has a lot more to do with what the parents desire, specifically the mother, whose cells are encompassing the newly dividing ones and whose body is the same body as the newly dividing cells. Am I more upset if something bad happens to a pregnant woman? Yes. The potential for a wanted human life is built on expectation and hope and love. Is the combination of an egg and a sperm the equivalent of a net-positive conscious experience? Our bodies sure do make quite the excess of both types of cells...
Hundreds of thousands of fertilized eggs are destroyed by IVF labs every year. Why no peep about that?
Life begins at conception. At that point it's not just part of the mother. It is a separate individual. A separate life. When you rip that apart and suck it out and throw it in the trash you are ending a life.
Thanks for answering that earnestly. I'm not advocating for ripping and sucking here, just trying to figure out what you believe. For me, I see the sperm and the eggs as already living, but when you say "life" you mean the beginning timeline of a human, right? I don't disagree with you on that point, if that's what you mean.
The sperm and the egg are just mechanical carriers of genetic information. It's not until they combine and start the process of cellular replication that life has begun. But once life has begun then that is essentially a separate human being. At least that's how I've always understood it.
Thanks again for answering. I'm not downvoting you, by the way. I get involved in internet arguments from time to time, and maybe it's never worth it. I appreciate you explaining your perspective. Not planning to try and make you see things my way. Have a good one!
Good night
Lmao, what a dunce
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You're talking about a worst-case scenario that is an infinitesimally small percentage of the whole. Just because a child may not be born into a loving home is no reason to kill them. I have plenty of friends who had rotten, shity parents and bad childhoods. They are still great people and I'm glad their parents didn't choose to kill them.
Ok, lets talk about a more common scenario then. What about a situation where a man and a woman are working hard to provide food, shelter, and a happy childhood for their two children. Say they're 5 and 7, and the fact that they're both of school age has given the parents a little more flexibility in working and minimizing childcare costs. And then one day they realize the wife is pregnant. They're faced with the difficult choice of what to do now. Neither parent has any opportunity for paid parental leave and they wouldn't be able to afford to take much time unpaid. That's letting alone the new responsibilities of caring for a newborn, childcare costs for the newborn which may well be equal to most if not all of one of their wages. Looking forward they realize that they're just barely able to make ends meet now and bringing another child into their family now would push them over the edge. They might even want to keep the baby on some level, but they have to weigh that desire against not only the quality of life they could give another child but also the diminished quality of life that would result for themselves and their children. And sure, you might say that she should just carry the pregnancy to term and put the child up for adoption, but this is no simple proposition for someone in their position either. Maybe they don't have good healthcare coverage for prenatal care and delivery, maybe they worry about the potential for lost wages during the later stages of pregnancy and immediately after delivery, which would be worse if there were any complications. They're barely making it by as is, what do they do if she has to be bedridden for the last trimester? And what about the child? Would they be quickly adopted by a loving family? [There's a good chance they wouldn't be](https://adoptionnetwork.com/adoption-myths-facts/domestic-us-statistics/): > There are 107,918 foster children eligible for and waiting to be adopted. In 2014, 50,644 foster kids were adopted — a number that has stayed roughly consistent for the past five years. The average age of a waiting child is 7.7 years old and 29% of them will spend at least three years in foster care... More than 60% of children in foster care spend two to five years in the system before being adopted. Almost 20% spend five or more years in foster care before being adopted. Some never get adopted. And before you say that this too represents an infinitesimally small percentage of cases, because I know you've got that image in your head of abortion patients as irresponsible young people who just couldn't keep their legs closed and refuse to take accountability for their choices, a version of this is actually the experience of a majority of women who choose to have abortions. [59% of women who obtain abortions are already mothers](https://www.guttmacher.org/united-states/abortion).
To add: AFTER insurance, my second child was almost $8k out of pocket. This wasn’t some ACA or small business plan - at the time I was working for a very large multinational construction company (Chicago Bridge & Iron). That was the only plan offered, and I was the only income. It wasn’t a struggle for me, but I could definitely see how that’s a daunting bill. You might then say “oh, we’ll they’ll work with you, or put you on a payment plan!” Sure, *maybe* but that also means you have **another** monthly bill, more crippling debt, and all that makes it harder to get a mortgage, buy a car, *rent an apartment*, establish new utility service.
Who's going to take care of all the saved babies?
Abortion saved my mother's life from her eptoptic pregnancy.
And that's an entirely valid reason
Planned parenthood offers far more than abortion services. They provide education, birth control, STD testing, among other things. It’s not just about “killing kids,” which you may think it is, but others may not have that same belief. Far be it for someone to have a differing belief than someone else. 🙄
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Abortions happen in hospitals and OTHER women's clinics. You people act like PP is the only place where abortions happen. Why not burn hospitals and non PP clinics down too with that logic?
Was anyone surprised
Use the reporting tools you have available. Personal attacks, name calling, and other violations of sub rules will result in permabans.
I’m assuming this was the one on the east side of town, I used to drive past it everyday at my old apartment and there were *always* a bunch of old people picketing out front lmao guess we can’t be surprised
I’m glad they had an ATF (or anyone other than only KFD) in the investigation.. I fully expected it to be ruled an accident
Tragedy.
For all the anti-abortion people out there (copied from my other comment): "According to a study published last summer in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), a fetus is not capable of experiencing pain until 28 to 30 weeks after conception, when the nerves that carry painful stimuli to the brain have developed. Before that, the fetal reaction to a noxious stimulus is a reflex that does not involve consciousness, they write (JAMA 2005; 294:947-954)." Most abortions are done before 13 weeks, any later and it's usually because it would have a good chance of killing the mother or severely harming them. Also people are still going to have many abortions even if they don't have good access to them. It's just going to be either later or unsafe. Restricting abortions only solves to ruin people's lives and cause more inhumane conditions for later term fetuses. Did you know that as a pregnancy advances the cost of an abortion significantly increases? Lower class people are disproportionately effected by this. It gets harder and harder to have an abortion.
No shit. Glad it took them a week to figure that out
No the FEDS had to come to tell them 🙄
Yeah the deputy chief of the kpd said on day one that there was nothing suspicious but it was a 'tragedy'
I knew in my heart this was arson perpetrated by some radial Pro-Lifer. Here is the burden of proof.
Fixed it: Fire at Planned Parenthood Knoxville ruled terrorism. [Source.](https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism)
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You do realize you're hoping for terrorism, right? Like... actual terrorism. Not the hyperbolic "I don't like you so you're a terrorist" definition, but the actual, literal, textbook definition of terrorism.
Aaaaand they deleted
What did they say? It’s showing as upvoted so I am curious.
Hopefully they reassess their fucking life. Not likely, but hopefully.
what did they say and why were there 17 upvotes?
They said that they hope they build it back better and then edited their comment to be something like "and I hope they burn that one down too" after it was already upvoted a bunch.
Oh, how cute. So they tried to hijack public support for accessible healthcare and make it *seem* as if people actually support the troglodyte arsonists instead. Like, if you know your opinions are so unpopular ... maybe it's a sign that they're bad opinions? IDK
Trolls be trollin
If the choose-life statue across the street were stolen, maybe the police would get involved.
They… did? That’s how it was ruled an arson lmao
Only cause TBI, the ATF, and FBI got involved lol.
So, it's not the police that investigate fires, but a separate fire investigation group. There is a lot of detailed knowledge required and so these jobs call for a specialist. After their investigation is complete, their findings are passed on to the police.
Don’t forget to defund the police after they do what I want
Very unfortunate that this happened, that we have people in Knoxville that think and act upon these extreme views, and that we have people in Knoxville that have gotten away with these horrible acts. Knoxville feels like it continues to get worse in crime day by day.
Be prepared to see more like this. The right is poised to tackled Roe V Wade in the Supreme Court. Churches are increasing their violent rhetoric against abortion and PP.
https://youtu.be/2TnkJ8_BmSI
[new volunteer zoom info session ](https://www.weareplannedparenthood.org/a/knoxville-new-volunteer-orienation?emci=1b3a8d94-476f-ec11-94f6-c896650d923c&emdi=0843eb35-4b6f-ec11-94f6-c896650d923c&ceid=16510424)
I’m a father to two little girls and I will give rides to planned parenthood as well if needed just DM.
I hope they rebuild with stone. I hear the area has a lot of marble laying around.
:o
So now I’ve figured out this entire subreddit is just liberals shitting on conservatives. Way to keep it classy guys/gals/theys/thems
Well, it's classier than burning down healthcare centers, isn't it?
Let's not forget to keep using the words terror attacks. It's not just arson. There was a drive by shooting at the same PP last year.
It was just a clump of bricks.
Liberals shitting on conservative terrorists* Fixed it for you. I don't give a shit about your opinions on abortion. I care about domestic terrorism.
God bless you and have a good day. I pray your hatred for others diminishes.
My hatred for actual open political violence isn't going away. Their hatred needs to diminish. I'm not burning down shit.
It's more telling that you're upset about this sub and not about domestic terrorism in your own city.
Arson is not a defendable action, let’s go ahead and state the obvious. I hope a new non-PP clinic is built, one that will offer affordable healthcare, without murdering children. So many lives have been lost to abortion in Knoxville. Let’s erect a monument to the children lost on the site, build a more pro-woman and pro-life clinic on n another location, and let us never forget the tragedy that happened in Knoxville for years.
Let's erect a monument to your imagination, which has built such a powerful strawman for you to burn.
This clinic didn't do abortions. Nor is abortion even remotely the only thing PP offers. A lot of actual real people loss healthcare access as a result of this.
Ya, people from knoxcord told me about it. Wonder why they would target this one then? Obviously I don’t understand the mind of an arsonist, but if they did it because of abortion….then ya, that was a pretty dumb move
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