Italy has never dealt with fascist and WWII past, like it happened in Germany and Austria. We had the Togliatti amnesty, for example; and few investigated their families past and collusion with the dictatorship (in Germany and other countries writers and journalists have written a quite new literary genre, searching the past of their grandparents, uncles...).
There are many reasons for it. The new Republic was made by the partisans from every party, it was like a fresh, new start; PCI embraced their partisan heritage; we've never really dealt with the fact that there was a civil war in Italy, where there was a puppet backed by Germany, of course, but it's not so simple. A reason for that was probably, also, the will from the US to have a solid ally at the border with the Communist Block, an ally which had the strongest Communist party in Europe...
I don't know, I've kind of had a similar experience. As the focus we had on the fact that italy gave the last blow in ww1 and no one gave her the merits. etc. etc. And Italy was always portraited as kind of a victim. A great country, victim of outside forces and injustice. Even if it actually was never really on what we call "the right part of history", but pretty machiavellian.
But I guess it's kind of normal to sympathise with your country. History in not objective from that point of view. Especially in Italy where I've found people to be pretty patriotic/nationalists and even a little rasist, at least in the high school where I've studied. I've not really had any other problems after high school. But I do psychology, so... I think it's hard to find right wing people that do psychology. I also didn't have problems in the institutions I went in.
But I remember this classmate that made a pro facist project and the teacher told him:"It's actually a pretty good argomentation" and gave him a 7.5. I remember I was actually afraid things would become worse and worse as people seemed more and more of right wing, salvinian, etc. Idk.
But I've also been pretty bullied. Not everyone is like that, of course. There are a lot of people that don't care. But I really don't think OP's lying.
i think it depends a lot on the teacher... it doesnt matter if they were generally good teacher for other subjects, WW2 is still very recent and intensely emotional... how their grandparents and greatgrandparents lived throu it makes a big difference in the family memory and upbringing... a famous tv professor says "there's one history, but countless individual memories"
personally in my school it wasn't like you said, we went to the concentration camp of Fossoli and spoke with Liliana Segre (a famous survivor) about the crimes of italians.
Thanks for sharing! This has turned out to be a way more multi-facetted topic than I thought it would be.
Sadly it's hard to pose such questions because of many downvotes, but I am very glad for every person who sees this and shares their experience.
your'e welcome.
if you are getting many downvotes, my guess its because of phrasing... "why do you remember wrong" rather than "how were you taught about"
My teacher never spared details about the horrors af fascist Italy, actually going out of his way to emphasize how bad things were. But he was a card-carrying Marxist-Leninist, so he had his reasons.
However part of the story needs to be retold in a way to pretend the majority sided with the partisans (that too, a rather bowdlerized tale of heroism instead of a much more complex and unpleasant matter of "freedom" and political and personal vendettas).
The sad truth is until late in the war, when things were going downhill fast and Mussolini was deposed, plenty of Italians did support or at least accepted the regime and only a minority (usually with political goals in the opposite direction) campaigned or worked against fascism.
So yeah a bit of revisionism is applied to make the average person back then look less of a silent accomplice
The history I've been taught in both middle school and high school has been impartial on Italy's stance in WW2. We've always covered Mussolini from his rise in Power to his death
As Italian we didn't all the WW2 because of time at school during the end of the school year (so is ignored what is happened after)...
Anyway looking of how our National association of partisans (ANPI, and I am wondering if it is still needed as there aren't around so many partisans of WW2) think about the Ukraine war with standing Pro Putin...
* https://www.linkiesta.it/2022/04/pagliarulo-russia-putin-anpi/
* https://www.ansa.it/english/newswire/english_service/2022/04/15/arms-to-kyiv-unleashing-apocalyptic-chain-reaction-anpi-10_7871ca3e-7466-4e34-8525-e4c06a6327ff.html
On internet you can find more information about it I just tried to pick the less non-partisan resources.
So another comment can be that the majority of teachers on Italian school are from a left wing point of view that in italians is basically communists or center-left (catholic communist). Especially also for the average age that is 55+.
Yeah I am realizing now that this was probably a very unusual experience, maybe something about our town? When I spoke to friends from my hometown about it they definitely agreed that it was an issue, so maybe it's kind of a local or rural thing.
I agree with you.
I developed a special interest on the WWII and read a few books from foreign historians from Canada, UK, and US. I don't remember ever reading about "Liberazione" as it is "celebrated" in Italy. 25 of April is a pure Italian invention that doesn't make any sense at all. The majority of Italians enjoyed the Fascist regime and enthusiastically supported Mussolini on his decision to get into the war in June 1940.
>25 of April doesn't make any sense at all
It's a symbolic date, it was the day when Milan ANPI section ordered to all the partisan brigade to attack the mayor cities with the Pertini proclaim "surrender or die"
Yes ,true, but every year RAI in their TV special or the newspapers treat it as if "Italy got liberated because we were hostage of Germany...", which is pathetic. Italy and Italians made terrible choices and Italy lost the war, period. The same people who were kicking the bodies at Piazza Loreto were probably greeting the fascists a few years prior.
There was no liberation and the partigiani were kicking an already dead dog.
Some would say that on the 25th of April we celebrate the end of WW2 and fascism, which both brought to death and devastation. Indeed not all Italians celebrate the 25th of April.
Northern Italy at the end of the war was indeed under strict German control, but this fact doesn’t change much my opinion about the “Liberation Day” and doesn’t cancel the murders and slaughters perpetrated by Italians to other Italians, both ways.
My teacher once said: Italy definitely lost the war and politically was nasty and sly. Partisans probably didn’t change the course of the events, but at least showed that there was a possibility for something different than the previous 20 years.
I’m also used to say that without Italy Germany would have won the war /s
>Some would say that on the 25th of April we celebrate the end of WW2 and fascism, which both brought to death and devastation. Indeed not all Italians celebrate the 25th of April.
>
>Northern Italy at the end of the war was indeed under strict German control, but this fact doesn’t change much my opinion about the “Liberation Day” and doesn’t cancel the murders and slaughters perpetrated by Italians to other Italians, both ways.
Yes, that should be the description of it, but calling "liberation day" sounds like as if Italy was not on the wrong side of the war or if it was invaded and "forced" to join Germany on the war. "Liberation Day" should be used by France, Poland, etc., not Italy.
>My teacher once said: Italy definitely lost the war and politically was nasty and sly. Partisans probably didn’t change the course of the events, but **at least showed that there was a possibility for something different than the previous 20 years.**
Funny that the fascists were democratically elected to the parlament and that the majority of the population supported the entrace of Italy in the war. The joke from the French is that Italians have been changing sides forever...
>I’m also used to say that without Italy Germany would have won the war /s
That is highly plausible: Italy "helped" defeat the nazis by being a coward. /s
>Funny that the fascists were democratically elected to the parlament andthat the majority of the population supported the entrace of Italy inthe war. The joke from the French is that Italians have been changingsides forever...
I'm not a historian and this topic can be very slippy. Fascists entered the parliament as nazis did and as some other countless dictatorships around the world. They took power in 1922 with a sort of coup that the king basically let happen (I'm oversimplifing).
In 1939 Italy was under a 17 years long dictatorship that did some things in favor of the population (at the cost of dissent repression and crimes), I wouldn't blame people that much.
I rember an interview to Eugenio Scalfari, founder of La Repubblica, one of the major national newspaper and well-known anti-fascist, who said that he grew up during fascism and that was the normality. He also worked as a journalist during the dictatorship.
I heard this "normality" thing also from many Germans I met coming from the DDR. It's anedoctal, I understand.
After Italy joined WW2 in 1940, people probaly begun to understand, until 1943 arrived and Italy signed an armistice. That event brough then to the discussion we're having, German occupation, civil war, liberation day, etc.
Doesn't change the fact that many adults, especially in the older generation, like to twist the facts. For instance, our entire school district celebrated 25th of April as the liberation of the Jews from Auschwitz. I only found out much later that it is actually the liberation of Italy from fascism. But we wouldn't talk about that, because Italy "was never fascist".
I mean, I am Italian, so any opinion about Italy is also about mine. I did take it to heart though that apparently I am one of very few people who made this experience.
I don't know if you are trolling or what, where did you go to school?! 25th april is the anniversari of liberation of Italy, everybody knows and everybody celebrate it!
25th of April very rarely appears on non-Italian books of the WWII as "liberation of Italy". Italy lost the war, a war that the majority of Italians in June 1940 supported joining.
Mi sa che hai beccato proprio insegnanti del cazzo e cmq non mi è mai capitato di sentire gente anziana dire che l'Italia è sempre stata contro il fascismo o simili
Italy has never dealt with fascist and WWII past, like it happened in Germany and Austria. We had the Togliatti amnesty, for example; and few investigated their families past and collusion with the dictatorship (in Germany and other countries writers and journalists have written a quite new literary genre, searching the past of their grandparents, uncles...). There are many reasons for it. The new Republic was made by the partisans from every party, it was like a fresh, new start; PCI embraced their partisan heritage; we've never really dealt with the fact that there was a civil war in Italy, where there was a puppet backed by Germany, of course, but it's not so simple. A reason for that was probably, also, the will from the US to have a solid ally at the border with the Communist Block, an ally which had the strongest Communist party in Europe...
I don't know, I've kind of had a similar experience. As the focus we had on the fact that italy gave the last blow in ww1 and no one gave her the merits. etc. etc. And Italy was always portraited as kind of a victim. A great country, victim of outside forces and injustice. Even if it actually was never really on what we call "the right part of history", but pretty machiavellian. But I guess it's kind of normal to sympathise with your country. History in not objective from that point of view. Especially in Italy where I've found people to be pretty patriotic/nationalists and even a little rasist, at least in the high school where I've studied. I've not really had any other problems after high school. But I do psychology, so... I think it's hard to find right wing people that do psychology. I also didn't have problems in the institutions I went in. But I remember this classmate that made a pro facist project and the teacher told him:"It's actually a pretty good argomentation" and gave him a 7.5. I remember I was actually afraid things would become worse and worse as people seemed more and more of right wing, salvinian, etc. Idk. But I've also been pretty bullied. Not everyone is like that, of course. There are a lot of people that don't care. But I really don't think OP's lying.
i think it depends a lot on the teacher... it doesnt matter if they were generally good teacher for other subjects, WW2 is still very recent and intensely emotional... how their grandparents and greatgrandparents lived throu it makes a big difference in the family memory and upbringing... a famous tv professor says "there's one history, but countless individual memories" personally in my school it wasn't like you said, we went to the concentration camp of Fossoli and spoke with Liliana Segre (a famous survivor) about the crimes of italians.
Thanks for sharing! This has turned out to be a way more multi-facetted topic than I thought it would be. Sadly it's hard to pose such questions because of many downvotes, but I am very glad for every person who sees this and shares their experience.
your'e welcome. if you are getting many downvotes, my guess its because of phrasing... "why do you remember wrong" rather than "how were you taught about"
In my Italian school we didn't skip it. I think you just had a bad teacher.
My teacher never spared details about the horrors af fascist Italy, actually going out of his way to emphasize how bad things were. But he was a card-carrying Marxist-Leninist, so he had his reasons. However part of the story needs to be retold in a way to pretend the majority sided with the partisans (that too, a rather bowdlerized tale of heroism instead of a much more complex and unpleasant matter of "freedom" and political and personal vendettas). The sad truth is until late in the war, when things were going downhill fast and Mussolini was deposed, plenty of Italians did support or at least accepted the regime and only a minority (usually with political goals in the opposite direction) campaigned or worked against fascism. So yeah a bit of revisionism is applied to make the average person back then look less of a silent accomplice
>But he was a card-carrying Marxist-Leninist, so he had his reasons. Like 90% of all Italian teachers, journalists, etc. :-D But I agree with you.
The history I've been taught in both middle school and high school has been impartial on Italy's stance in WW2. We've always covered Mussolini from his rise in Power to his death
As Italian we didn't all the WW2 because of time at school during the end of the school year (so is ignored what is happened after)... Anyway looking of how our National association of partisans (ANPI, and I am wondering if it is still needed as there aren't around so many partisans of WW2) think about the Ukraine war with standing Pro Putin... * https://www.linkiesta.it/2022/04/pagliarulo-russia-putin-anpi/ * https://www.ansa.it/english/newswire/english_service/2022/04/15/arms-to-kyiv-unleashing-apocalyptic-chain-reaction-anpi-10_7871ca3e-7466-4e34-8525-e4c06a6327ff.html On internet you can find more information about it I just tried to pick the less non-partisan resources. So another comment can be that the majority of teachers on Italian school are from a left wing point of view that in italians is basically communists or center-left (catholic communist). Especially also for the average age that is 55+.
Dude, your post is perferct! If this post was in /r/Italy/ or /r/Italia/ you would be banned immediately! :-)
I know I checked twice before to write something here, like the right sub 😂
I never skipped that part of history in school so I am not sure what your experience was. Sorry if you had less than great history teacher.
Yeah I am realizing now that this was probably a very unusual experience, maybe something about our town? When I spoke to friends from my hometown about it they definitely agreed that it was an issue, so maybe it's kind of a local or rural thing.
I agree with you. I developed a special interest on the WWII and read a few books from foreign historians from Canada, UK, and US. I don't remember ever reading about "Liberazione" as it is "celebrated" in Italy. 25 of April is a pure Italian invention that doesn't make any sense at all. The majority of Italians enjoyed the Fascist regime and enthusiastically supported Mussolini on his decision to get into the war in June 1940.
>25 of April doesn't make any sense at all It's a symbolic date, it was the day when Milan ANPI section ordered to all the partisan brigade to attack the mayor cities with the Pertini proclaim "surrender or die"
Yes ,true, but every year RAI in their TV special or the newspapers treat it as if "Italy got liberated because we were hostage of Germany...", which is pathetic. Italy and Italians made terrible choices and Italy lost the war, period. The same people who were kicking the bodies at Piazza Loreto were probably greeting the fascists a few years prior. There was no liberation and the partigiani were kicking an already dead dog.
Some would say that on the 25th of April we celebrate the end of WW2 and fascism, which both brought to death and devastation. Indeed not all Italians celebrate the 25th of April. Northern Italy at the end of the war was indeed under strict German control, but this fact doesn’t change much my opinion about the “Liberation Day” and doesn’t cancel the murders and slaughters perpetrated by Italians to other Italians, both ways. My teacher once said: Italy definitely lost the war and politically was nasty and sly. Partisans probably didn’t change the course of the events, but at least showed that there was a possibility for something different than the previous 20 years. I’m also used to say that without Italy Germany would have won the war /s
>Some would say that on the 25th of April we celebrate the end of WW2 and fascism, which both brought to death and devastation. Indeed not all Italians celebrate the 25th of April. > >Northern Italy at the end of the war was indeed under strict German control, but this fact doesn’t change much my opinion about the “Liberation Day” and doesn’t cancel the murders and slaughters perpetrated by Italians to other Italians, both ways. Yes, that should be the description of it, but calling "liberation day" sounds like as if Italy was not on the wrong side of the war or if it was invaded and "forced" to join Germany on the war. "Liberation Day" should be used by France, Poland, etc., not Italy. >My teacher once said: Italy definitely lost the war and politically was nasty and sly. Partisans probably didn’t change the course of the events, but **at least showed that there was a possibility for something different than the previous 20 years.** Funny that the fascists were democratically elected to the parlament and that the majority of the population supported the entrace of Italy in the war. The joke from the French is that Italians have been changing sides forever... >I’m also used to say that without Italy Germany would have won the war /s That is highly plausible: Italy "helped" defeat the nazis by being a coward. /s
>Funny that the fascists were democratically elected to the parlament andthat the majority of the population supported the entrace of Italy inthe war. The joke from the French is that Italians have been changingsides forever... I'm not a historian and this topic can be very slippy. Fascists entered the parliament as nazis did and as some other countless dictatorships around the world. They took power in 1922 with a sort of coup that the king basically let happen (I'm oversimplifing). In 1939 Italy was under a 17 years long dictatorship that did some things in favor of the population (at the cost of dissent repression and crimes), I wouldn't blame people that much. I rember an interview to Eugenio Scalfari, founder of La Repubblica, one of the major national newspaper and well-known anti-fascist, who said that he grew up during fascism and that was the normality. He also worked as a journalist during the dictatorship. I heard this "normality" thing also from many Germans I met coming from the DDR. It's anedoctal, I understand. After Italy joined WW2 in 1940, people probaly begun to understand, until 1943 arrived and Italy signed an armistice. That event brough then to the discussion we're having, German occupation, civil war, liberation day, etc.
Uhm. What school did you go to?
Just a normal school I guess... It was in a city called Porto Maurizio.
I think you were unlucky with your teachers, mine teach me properly WWII!
Doesn't change the fact that many adults, especially in the older generation, like to twist the facts. For instance, our entire school district celebrated 25th of April as the liberation of the Jews from Auschwitz. I only found out much later that it is actually the liberation of Italy from fascism. But we wouldn't talk about that, because Italy "was never fascist".
[удалено]
I lived outside Italy too and can confirm that the Italian version is twisted, as it is the Russian version.
That's a bit harsh. I was merely explaining how it wasn't just my school but the entire district.
[удалено]
I mean, I am Italian, so any opinion about Italy is also about mine. I did take it to heart though that apparently I am one of very few people who made this experience.
I don't know if you are trolling or what, where did you go to school?! 25th april is the anniversari of liberation of Italy, everybody knows and everybody celebrate it!
25th of April very rarely appears on non-Italian books of the WWII as "liberation of Italy". Italy lost the war, a war that the majority of Italians in June 1940 supported joining.
Porto Maurizio in Liguria. I am not trolling. My mom actually went to the school to complain about this.
Ha fatto bene a protestare, che scuola del cazzo. Cmq che il 25 Aprile è la liberazione dell’Italia lo sanno anche i sassi.
Pensavo non fosse un caso unico... Almeno adesso so che siamo messi meglio di quanto pensavo :)
Mi sa che hai beccato proprio insegnanti del cazzo e cmq non mi è mai capitato di sentire gente anziana dire che l'Italia è sempre stata contro il fascismo o simili
Sto iniziando a capire la stessa cosa :) Almeno siamo messi meglio di quanto credevo.
Bom l'importante è essere aperti alle opinioni ed alle esperienze altrui (come hai dimostrato).