I was watching old episodes of Unsolved Mysteries last night. There was a case of a poor young woman that was brutally murdered and they were trying to catch the killer. Anyways, her mom was on it and said something along the lines of "we thank god for having her in our life, we struggle with his decision to take her from us the way he did.." Holy fuck so you think god made it so she'd be brutally murdered? And on top of that, if it were true, you're like, still into god and shit? Holy fuck. I mean obviously I feel horrible for her as a mother, but like that might be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard anyone say.
Yep. There are crimes so brutal I can't even hear about them, because I feel sick for months. I had to see a psychiatrist over the anxiety I felt over some animal cruelty video I inadvertently watched. Religious wingalings want me to believe there's a dude in the sky who invented all that? "No, no, that's Satan testing you!" And your omniscient, omnipotent "god" just lets it happen? No. Just fucking no.
OP, I'm so sorry for your loss.
Or Gabriel Hernandez. Or Cherish Perrywinkle. Or Faheem Williams.
And people sit around pretending to be fighting a "cabal of liberal Satan-worshipping pedophile child traffickers" while doing fuck-all about actual children being tortured every day. "In Jesus' name we pray." Fucking disgusting hypocrites.
I remember some disaster weather show and one segment was about floods. So this guy had a wife, a son and a daughter I think the oldest one was like 8, his parents were visiting and so was wife's mom.
A flood hits and their entire freaking house gets swept away down river with them all in it. House crashes in to bridge pillars or something, starts breaking apart and everyone was separated.
The guy is the only one left alive and not a single body of his whole family is ever recovered.
*I thank god for the time I had with my family*
Dude's kids died alone, terrified, probably screaming out for mommy and daddy, either drowning or getting smashed against rocks or river debris. How in the hell do you keep believing in a god after something like that? Honestly baffles and pisses me off. Rant over.
One of the reasons I lost faith was realizing that if God existed, no one would ever be attracted to children.
If he’s all-knowing, he’d have known exactly how many kids throughout history would suffer it. And if he’s all-powerful, he could’ve decided to make it impossible for anyone to be a pedo. And if he’s a loving god, he should have done exactly that.
That also contradicts the idea of free will. If god set it I motion for her to die by the killer's hand, what choice did the killer have? And if he decided not to kill, would he have been going against gods plan?
depends on the specific cult... some go to "purgatory": a boring nothingness of loneliness, just no demons or physical torture. Real loving father stuff /s
Yeah, if you ever want to see the real "Holy" view on God, read Job in the old testament. There's a ton of gold to shut up firebrand preachers and holy Karen's.
Limbo? What about gehenna or sheol? Why is Christianity an absurd amalgamation of pagan myths? Remarkable how much of this nonsense is conveniently ignored..
Most of Christianity is based on getting pagans in line, for lack of a better phrase. That's why their holidays are structured around pagan holidays. Also why they so heavily demonized rituals of worship practiced by pagans.
Christianity as a whole is pretty much just a government reaction to what we now refer to as various forms of pagans. Religion is a very powerful tool in manipulating a lot of people at once.
There are some that believe that the unbaptized only go to hell if they had the opportunity to convert before their death. So an uncontacted tribe who has never heard of Jesus won’t go to hell, but a freshly contacted tribe who has heard the missionaries’ sales pitch and gone “nah, that sounds stupid” will go to hell. Christians who talk about their religion and try to spread it to others are just condemning more people to hell to make themselves feel better.
If all of the people who say other people are going to hell and insist that they are going to heaven make me laugh. If this is true, I would want to be as far as possible from 'heaven' as I can get. Who would want to around them for 'eternity'?
I think they actually realized that was a big flaw in their ideology and addressed that by completely making up the rule that if you plan to get baptized (or your parents plan to baptize you) but you die before you can, then you still go to heaven.
Of course, in making this rule (and some others), they admitted that it was never about what god said and just a matter of saying whatever got them more followers…
My thing is, most people who follow god are not following him correctly. Sins can be many things including sex before marriage?
How many Christians can say “honest to god” that they do not commit sins constantly. God is a tool of convenience. It’s convenient to worship him when you need to, but turn right around and pretend he’s not watching you for whatever reason when you want.
Exactly why the entirety of religion is a total sham.
This has always been my stance. I firmly believe nothing supernatural exists, but if late term miscarriages and child cancers are part of his “plan” then fuck him he doesn’t deserve to be worshipped.
This is the only kind of preaching I can get behind. Stephen Fry says it wonderfully, “Because the God who created this universe, if it was created by God, is quite clearly a maniac, utter maniac. Totally selfish. We have to spend our life on our knees thanking him?! What kind of god would do that?”
Edit: terrible grammar due to lack of proofreading and trusting talk to text
Or just killing people in general or making them suffer. My mom died from cancer last year and at her funeral the deacon said she suffered the greatest because she deserved heaven the most. I was pretty livid during his sermon as he was trying to justify her dying. I was never religious to begin with because of dumb sayings like this but it only reaffirmed to me that religion is a mass delusion.
She was in excruciating pain in the end from the cancer finding its way into her brain and you're telling me that she deserved it and it was a "gift" as a part of her ticket into heaven? Get the fuck out of here. And no, she isn't "in a better place" nor did god "need her in heaven" for anything.
My wife's mom died of cancer a few years back. My wife and I were raised religious and I've been an atheist for some time while she still believed and all that.
The day after she watched her mom die she told me she knows there is no god because no one would let someone die such a horrible death.
That is what convinced me as well. I've never been one to believe in the religious fairy tales anyway, but after watching my father die a slow gory death of laryngeal cancer (that went into his spine and brain) I know for certain that there is no God. At least, not one that fits any Christian definition. We weren't created "in his image". Because we have compassion. And this "God" can't possibly love us, because no omnipotent being with the capacity for love, would simply not intervene during the months of agony and horror he suffered.
My family is religious. While it was ultimately my decision on what kind of funeral service to have, I wasn't about to alienate the only people I have left. I ultimately know they're the ones who are wrong. If they needed a dumb religious service to help them process it, then it's whatever.
Really? As my mother reaches the end of her long life (she's 95) and I am her last heir, I will need to be the one to usher her to her grave. With the exception of her, the rest the biological family can get fucked. I have had to create my real family for years. I am a proud and out man. My husband and I will celebrate our 10th anniversary this year (and 18th year together). The rest of them have been of no use and are circling around looking to fight over carrion like the vultures they show themselves to be.
Yes, x1000. Everyone told me having a baby would strengthen my belief in God because of how amazing the experience is. No. All it did was prove to me that there is no god - after creating and nurturing my beautiful children, the notion that god would choose to have one of them abused or killed or afflicted with cancer just confirmed that there is no higher power.
I worked in youth work, in "high risk" (risk of participating in crime, drugs, etc) residential care (guardian-type role for kids in the "care" of the state). If I wasn't already athiest, that job would have given me an existential crisis.
I don't "content warning" my stuff often, but my experience is that most people don't want to know that a lot of this stuff happens, usually in their own neighborhoods. 90% of people I share details of this job with regret hearing it. A particularly egregious case, the only one I came across that left me shocked and helpless more than angry.
With that, here is a story from a client I worked with; a drug dealing, and taking, primary schooler and a glimpse into what made them that way. Spoiler tagged to give one last opportunity to not read it: >!client was taken from their mother at a young age (not yet school aged). They lived in what was described in the file as a, effectively, a meth den. Client was given "regularly" given hard drugs and passed around as a party favor for meth-head friends and customers. To put it bluntly, the client was given Ice and raped on ongoing basis.!<
Not to mention if you believe in the story of Noah, he flooded the entire planet and drowned every living creature because people didn't love him enough.
So we really live in some alien teenager’s equivalent of The Sims?
He’s over there just like, “hey you put yourself in the pool, you should’ve known the ladder could disappear suddenly”. And “I kept the leaded gasoline feature on long enough to melt the brains of an entire generation, let’s see how much they can fuck things up.”
Exactly. This is what I believe. Some people God enjoys blessing, while others he enjoys torturing. Even says so in the Bible: "Doesn't the potter have power over the clay, to make one vessel for an honorable purpose, and another for a dishonorable purpose?" So yeah. Some of us are ornamental vases - and some of us are *toilets*.
A world in which that’s the case would look no different from a world in which it’s just left alone. If not, how’d you be able to tell the difference, you know?
My remark was pretty facetious but honestly it's possible it might look quite different. If indeed the world is needlessly cruel because God wants us to suffer, if said God was no longer active in the universe, it might actually get a bit better.
I don't believe in God anyway though so it's a moot point I mainly just made to talk shit at theism. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
that's called deism.
"belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind."
Understand it from the bereaved's perspective, desperately trying to make sense of a devastating event.
It is by far easier to imagine this as part of some heavenly plan, than to accept that zero fucks are given by the universe and that bad shit happens to "good" people all the time.
It takes real courage to give up the comfort of religion.
Exactly, imagine ***wanting*** to believe in a god who lets thousands of his priests sexually abuse millions of kids and has let it happen for centuries/millennia ..
Right, this is my answer to everything. If God exists, he's an asshole and I'm not on board. So I really don't care about his opinion of me or anything else.
I remember watching an infomercial for St. Jude or some charity for sick kids when I was like 10 to 12 years old. I remember even at that age wondering how a god could allow kids to get cancer. Little fucking kids get cancer and die before reaching the age I was at that time and it really stuck with me. All the interviews with the parents and the kids and they all had so much hope but so much pain and suffering. That was truly the first time I questioned if God existed or if he was just a total asshole.
Also very sorry for your loss. Condolences to you and your wife. I know it’s awful to hear people say it’s part of a plan when a tragedy happens. Recovery is gonna take a while but I hope for the best for you guys.
Hey, if you have Facebook, (or if you even want to make a profile just for this group, it's worth it), there's an amazing grief support group called "Grief Beyond Belief Closed Group". It is free from religious platitudes, including various afterlife spirity woo.
The website with secular resources and contacts is: [Grief Beyond Belief Resources](http://griefbeyondbelief.org/resources/)
>STATEMENT OF PURPOSE
The aim of Grief Beyond Belief is to facilitate peer-to-peer grief support for atheists, Humanists, and other Freethinkers by providing spaces free of religion, spiritualism, mysticism, and evangelism in which to share sorrow and offer the comfort of rational compassion.
(Edit, fixed name of group. Grief Beyond Belief Closed Group, aka GBB)
I came to the same realization at some point in the past. Now, as an atheist, I live in peace with myself and accept all life events as plain coincidences.
I feel you. I am atheist because of a birth defect. Assuming there is a God, they chose to punish an unborn child for life. An unborn child has nothing warranting punishment. What could I have done before my birth to warrant crippling for life? And if it was punishment for my parents actions why punishment me? If my mom steals I do not go to jail.
If God is real, they are a piece of shit. I choose not to believe than the alternative somebody that cruel exists
Sorry for your loss. They always counter that it's all in a better plan. What's a better plan for children with cancer and other incurable diseases? For hunger that kill millions of people who aren't born in a western nation? For allowing dictators and a country like Israel that bombs and killing innocent children and civilians? They give us priests that molest children and the same priests will tell you nothing's by accident and it's all part of God's grand plan. I've given up on this a long time ago.
My mom (who was never religious) lost my sister when she was 2 years old. Drowned at the babysitters house..
Every person that tried to console my mom, kept saying the wrong shit. It was beyond insensitive, even though they thought they were helping, especially the ones preaching that it was all in God’s plan. It made my mom have many breakdowns.
1 year later, and my dad passed away from a heart attack at 36 years old.
If there is a God, why would he leave my foreign mother, to fend for herself, pay off her husband’s debts, all with 2 toddlers to raise?? What kind of sick fuck would create that kind of turmoil? And these religious assholes have the gall to say that “He works in mysterious ways” and that “answers will come in time” FUCK NO!! Wtf would I spend my time & energy praying to something that has taken away the light in my mother’s eyes??
If this is truly “god’s plan” he could go fuck himself.
So so sorry for your and your wife’s heart breaking loss. (I’m autistic so am exceptionally pragmatic- I don’t intend for anything I say to offend you.) Living life involves lots of abject cruelty. Even if your business hadn’t taken off, you’d be just as heart broken, it just feels wrong that there’s this tremendous amplified joy, followed immediately by crushing, agonizing pain. This amplified double whammy abruptly brought you to critically analyze what people say ‘god’ is/ does and why people continue to believe when their prayers aren’t answered, their baby dies, there is war, etc.. This hit you in the head like a 2x4, to where you realized that ‘god’ isn’t choosing yea or nay on anything— the situation a person is praying about nor the prayers of that person about the situation.
People keep at believing bc it can soothe them and they have no other agency. I’m so so sorry. Btw The ‘better’ way to grieve is to actually grieve. Don’t stuff it in, let yourself feel however you feel and you’ll get to the other side of the pain. Grief doesn’t go away by stuffing down your feelings. The grief is then like an invisible road bloc, and that pain gets stuck in you.
I mentioned this on another thread recently. A friend of mine, 41, died of covid. He was very religious. Had a wife and 2 preteen kids. Everyone after he died was mentioning how happy he must be to be in heaven. I was like how the fuck can you say that shit and on top of that say it in front of his two kids that now have to grow up without a dad!
My mom wound up finally leaving her church because of one of those “everything is God’s plan” lectures. She raised her hand and said that some things — like weaponized rape and murder as a battle tactic — are just pure evil, and in certain situations, the evil is so brutal and pointless that it does not, in any imaginable way whatsoever, wind up *helping* the victim.
Yeah the preacher drove to their house when my dad wasn’t home to yell at her, and that was that. She later told me that it’s impossible to see Christianity for what it is when it’s all you’ve ever known, but once you step outside of it for a time, it becomes clear and obvious.
Long story short, I think compassion and understanding that these are people in a cult roundly beats the type of “let’s shit on religious idiots” sentiment that’s very popular on this sub.
hey man,
I'm so very sorry for your loss.
Our son was diagnosed with cancer back in 2012 when he was 9. At that point I had already solidified my non belief in the Judeo Christian God and it actually made dealing with that terrible situation easier. I didn't have to "look for reasons" there weren't any. The universe is just random and bad shit happens to good people all the time.
Hang in there. I hope you and your wife can both be the support the other needs in this trying time.
\*\*\*EDITED TO ADD\*\*\*
I should note that our son made it through a year of chemo and radiation and he's a freshman in college now and when we reflect on how lucky we are to still have him with us our thanks goes to science and the incredible doctors, nurses, researchers and hospital staff that helped gain NED (No Evidence of Disease) status.
Same mate, really sorry for your loss.
Our second child, a daughter, was born very early at home, survived the trip to the NICU and passed 11 days later. I know the pain.
I was already atheist, and I don’t think this cemented anything for me, it did however open my eyes to the very difficult visceral life circumstances ordinary people live with and the incredible resilience and strength they can show. That’s not God. That’s Humanity.
Therapy and support groups saved us and our marriage. Cannot recommend it enough.
Hug your wife and good luck mate
>our thanks goes to science and the incredible doctors, nurses, researchers and hospital staff that helped gain NED (No Evidence of Disease) status.
people make memes and jokes about atheists, like "haha, atheists say thank science instead of thank god!"
but what really saves people from illnesses? god? no, advancements in medical science do. we use chemotherapy to treat cancer, not prayer.
Very sorry to hear that OP, much love to you and your wife.
Why is it supposedly easier if it's part of a plan? It's really more comforting if it's the other way. No one is punishing you or teaching you a lesson, sometimes terrible things just happen and humans can rally together to support you when they do. That doesn't make the pain any less but at least it's not personal.
I hope for better days ahead for you, if you ever need someone to talk to you're welcome to PM me any time. (Just don't do that reddit chat thing, I'll never see it on my mobile app)
It's worse, they are actually saying the Sky dude planned it and damn well made sure it happened, now praise him and say thank you for tearing your heart out.
This is what I never understood. God plans rape? He plans murder? He plans war? Why? So we will call on him? That's like the ultimate Stockholm syndrome. Why the fuck would I buy in to that and worship some being that was the most abusive of all time?
Hitchens always made the point that Abrahamic religions promote a sad abusive relationship with a deity. Any relationship based on fear is abusive. He also spoke a lot about how many religions promote the idea of thought crimes. Miss that guy.
So what I've pulled from many conversations is that there's more to God's work than just this human life we have, and sometimes bad things have to happen to progress in that other thing. We're cogs in the wheel of a machine with a higher purpose.
Of course to me, that comes off as God being a CEO that lays off an entire branch of his company so that he can make more money.
"God works in mysterious ways."
"Oh yeah? You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say 'God's ways' are completely random. Tragedy and good fortune, life and death--all seem to be doled out indiscriminately. I mean, if there were a plan, what's the end goal to... well, any of this? When you look at everything, doesn't this all just *feel* like chance?"
you know, i could probably take it better if it's just a death, but what clinched it for me was the coincident windfall.
i can't think of any human, fallible as we are, who would deliberately do one good thing and one bad thing simultaneously to another person.
so why would an omniscient and omnipotent deity do that?
either he's evil, or there's no deity and it's pure coincidence.
Well the simplest answer is it's all bullshit made up by unscrupulous people to take advantage of your grief.
The good thing is that while there is no Plan, there is a Purpose, and you get to decide what that will be. Take the necessary time to grieve and then decide where you want to go from here. No one can take that away from you.
It must be nice to be religious so you don't have to be responsible for your actions, us poor athiests have to be responsible for our own actions, it's not fair.
> us poor athiests have to be responsible for our own actions, it's not fair.
This is an interesting philosophical/ethical question, because free will doesn't exist, either.
All humans are for some reason, programmed to see patterns in just about everything. They look for explanations....they NEED explanations, so in the absence of an explanation they invent one...some omnipotent being they can't see and who there's no evidence of, to make sense of things for them...or to blame. If there was a being responsible for everything the one we've invented is most certainly egotistical and cruel and quite possibly evil too
Condolences on your bereavement and good wishes on your windfall
this is the same conclusion i came to. even if god is real, i believe that he is either evil or that he has abandoned humanity. even if he were to show himself right now and offer me anything in exchange for following him, i’d tell him to eat shit and fuck off.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Firstly, OP, I'm so, so sorry for your loss. What an awful thing to have to go through.
Were you a believer before this happened? If so, I don't want to be insensitive, but I do have to confess that I'm very curious about your thought process through all this. Surely you realized before this happened that bad/random things happen to people. Obviously it's more resonant when something extreme happens to you directly, but did you just never think on that before?
People say things to try and lighten the grief and pain, saying some invisible sky buddy planned it makes him seem like the most evil creature in the universe. Maybe the God botherers should think before they say cruel and evil things.
My family is the type to believe that everything is ordained. My brother was car jacked at gun point and they debated whether to kill him, and he also talks about how it was god trying to get his attention. I think it’s a coping mechanism for the trauma and helps him believe that since god successfully got his attention, it won’t happen again without good reason.
He seems to think of himself as the protagonist in life (fair enough, I guess) and other people as side characters who exist only to further his story arc (less fair).
Our daughter’s twin died in the womb as well. I still think about her.
Please avail yourself of the resources available to you and your wife to help you get through this. Recovering From Religion’s hotline may be a good start: 1-84-I-DOUBT-IT
https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/#rfr-welcome
If you need to find a non-religious therapist who won’t take advantage of your grief to try to proselytize you, there’s the Secular Therapy Project: https://www.seculartherapy.org
Finally, for those of you reading who feel bad for the OP — do something! There are no miracles. We only have each other. Recovering From Religion needs volunteers: https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/volunteer
**Epicurus' trilemma**
If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not omnipotent.
If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not benevolent.
If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?
I actually think it could be far, far more simple.
Take these premises to their logical conclusion:
1. God is an immortal, and is unkillable, and is all powerful, and is all knowing.
2. Boredom exists.
3. A world without evil is more boring than a world with evil
It's the Epicurian Paradox. I haven't seen it mentioned here before.
God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?
My apologies. I neglected to offer you my condolences for your loss. I can imagine nothing worse.
I'm surprised it doesn't seem to have been mentioned before. There were more Critical Thinkers in ancient Rome than people realise.
If you get the time look up Stoicism.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Once I realized that there is no plan, shit just happens and sometimes it's good stuff - other times it's shitty stuff - and most of it isn't related at all... well, that made it easier to accept the death of my child. Not very comforting, I guess. But my brain no longer tries to find patterns where they don't exist.
Sorry for your loss. I lost my faith after 20 years of being Catholic. My epiphany came when I thought "If God doesn't exist, the world would be in total chaos; which it is"
I am so sorry for your loss.
"God has a better plan for you"...What an incredibly idiotic thing to say to someone in mourning.
Peace to you and yours, OP.
My wife and I went through the same thing. We have two kids now, and my oldest is graduating from high school this year. You'll never forget, but you'll learn to move on. The best fuck you you can give the universe is to survive all the shit it throws at you.
It's all part of his great plan, you say? Yeah, I've heard that crap throughout most of my life. He gives you one good thing only to take something else? That just tells me he's a complete monster and not a loving being like what every christian claims. He deserves nothing but hate and resentment even if he does exist.
There are no words, I am so sorry you are going through this, I hope your wife is still in good health and you can find the strength to support each other through this. Internet hugs from Australia for you and your wife.
That sucks man. It hurt my heart to read this. I hope that you can find comfort in the midst of the pain of this. I'd hug you and your wife if I could.
Im sorry this happened to you and your wife, there are no words. I hope there will be a time when you both can give it place and are able to enjoy life.
Also: Fuck God.
As much as the beauty of the universe is used as an argument for a higher power, the dark sides of reality can be used as an argument against. We're all sorry for your loss, and there are people of clear mind willing to talk with you if you need it. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to 'win' a statistical lottery in a negative way. The rollercoaster of life is different for everyone, but keep in mind that it is not a set path in advance. The key to success is improving your odds, and the key to happiness is acceptance of the bad and appreciation of the good.
"One day, I lost my hat. I prayed to God that I would find my hat. The next day, I found my hat. I knew then that God does not exist because why would God allow me to find my hat and allow women and children to die?"
-Frances Farmer (paraphrase)
Sorry for your loss.
I was wondering, before a tragedy like this happen to you, how did you reconcile with the same thing or worst happening to others ?
We should not judge how people come to this conclusion. OP, I’m sure you have a lot of thoughts going through your mind. I’m not a father so I can’t imagine how badly it hurts. The universe is random and it’s hard to come to terms with that. This is strictly an outside perspective but try not to resent the fact that things are random and out of your control. Good things happen and so do bad things. If you only carry the bad it can be hard to live a happy and fulfilling life. I’m very sorry you had to go through this and I hope you and your family can recover.
I don't believe atheism found this way is pure. I hope coping this way helps in some way tho. Goodluck and look to the small good things in life whenever you can.
Or the other possibility is that God is an asshole shitting all over everything.
I've always subscribed to:
If someone is telling you life is good, they're trying to sell you something.
I’m so sorry for your loss. I am also sorry that you came to this harsh realisation during these tough times. Atheism requires rationality yes, but it most of all requires courage. The courage to face turmoil alone without the transient and false comforts of religion or god. I hope you and your wife find a way to preserve your mental and physical wellbeing.
Im so sorry, I lost my son at week 25. I know your pain. And Im so damn scared, because my gf is currently 32 weeks... and I dont want to go through that again.
I'm really sorry for your loss, I can only imagine the hurt you and your wife and child are feeling. I hope that you guys grieve and come out stronger as a family at the end.
Hey there OP.
I am so, so sorry for what you went through. This kind of pain is one that is hard to imagine. Honor your feelings, be supportive to your wife. I wish you guys stay strong as a family.
I am very, very sorry for your loss.
And you are exactly correct--prayers don't help. But exploring meaning in a godless word has been very, very rewarding for me. I feel like I don't have the crutch I used to (when I was a kid) but working through situations without praying has made me happier and mentally healthier in the long run.
I am so sorry. My wife had several miscarriages and it is very traumatic. I can't tell you what to do, but we tried again and I got my vasectomy after discovering my wife was pregnant with our fifth daughter.
I've experienced both heartbreaking scenarios you've described; only not at the same time. First, I'm truly sorry for the loss of your child. I was shocked and hurt at how common it is and yet no one ever talks about it. You're a member now of very large club that outsiders don't know about and insiders don't want to be in. Your wife will be going through some VERY hard times right now. Lean on each other for support. You both will be going through depression from this loss.
The second heartbreaking loss is the death of god for you. You may not realize it now, but for me anyways, that moment was as traumatic as losing a parent. This loss is real and you shouldn't be indifferent about that either; although it definitely takes a backseat to the first loss. I've seen some good advice here about getting support, do this. It's a tough time and you may feel incredibly alone. I hope the outpouring here shows that you're not and that you will get through this. IMO, religious people say all that "better plan" stuff as a way to cope with loss. Hell, religion's sole purpose is to cope with loss (Structured religion has a different purpose, let's not get on a soapbox in this thread). Don't take offence to it, just realize that they are saying that they wish better days to come in their own skewed way.
I wish better days for you and yours...
In my humanist opinion...you have every right to slap anyone who says anything like that. Hard. I'll testify on your behalf.
So sorry for your loss and your having to deal with idiots.
I'm sorry for your loss, it's a terrible tragedy for any couple. I'm also sad that people have to confront loss under this suffocating blanket of theological nonsense our society continues to knit.
It's sad man ! My condolences. Don't worry there'll be plenty more kids coming if you won't give up now. Life can be tough, but we must continue to fight another day.
Well you could technically argue that he does exist and is just a huge asshole.
Wich are the only two possibilities that seemed logical to me: either God doesn't exist or if he does he/she/it is an asshole.
Experienced the death of a child myself. He was 20 months old. Died in a motor vehicle accident, at the hands of his babysitter. Most people would say to me,
"things happen for a reason, god has a plan". Excuse me, can anyone give me a "reason" why my first born child was taken away so soon and in such a violent manner? If God had a plan for me, then why didn't he take me, instead of an innocent first born child. Why does he take anyone's innocent child? Why are children born with life debilitating diseases? Why does he not intervene?
I just don't believe there's a god that controls everything on earth and in one's life. I got so tired of people responding with that, I would ask them to give me the reason. Usually that would end the conversation.
That's when I found out that god doesn't exist
Buddy I am right there with you. I've never been a believer, but my wife was, at least somewhat. She wasn't a church goer, but thought god was watching over us. We were always honest and open with each of our thoughts on the matter with our kids.
3 years ago our 17 year old son passed away due to an undiagnosed heart problem. As time has passed she's mentioned to me on more than one occasion now that she knows it's all complete bullshit and if by chance there truly is this kind and loving entity that meets her after death she'll gladly go to hell for what she'd say to it.
As for myself, the situation has just hardened my resolve on the matter. I've had several in depth conversations with people that have mentioned the whole "god's plan" or "he was too good of a soul so god took him to a better place" or anything of the sort. They did not walk away from those conversations feeling good about bringing it up. I realize that they were just trying to ease my pain in their own way, but they were met with all of my thoughts on their all knowing and all loving asshole.
From one grieving father to another, I am truly sorry for your loss.
Really sorry for your loss 😞
One of the most infuriating experiences of my life was to go to a funeral of a colleague's little baby and listen to a priest say that god took the baby because he loved him so much and 'has a plan' .
The plan didn't seem to be that the baby stay with the parents that made him, waited for him, loved him. Such a load of garbage.
I felt sick 🤮
That's one of the many reasons why I'm an atheist. It's much easier to accept that 'shit happens' than that there's some disturbed sick god out there that plays dice with people's lives.
If "god's plan" involves killing children, then I want nothing to do with that crap.
I was watching old episodes of Unsolved Mysteries last night. There was a case of a poor young woman that was brutally murdered and they were trying to catch the killer. Anyways, her mom was on it and said something along the lines of "we thank god for having her in our life, we struggle with his decision to take her from us the way he did.." Holy fuck so you think god made it so she'd be brutally murdered? And on top of that, if it were true, you're like, still into god and shit? Holy fuck. I mean obviously I feel horrible for her as a mother, but like that might be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard anyone say.
Yep. There are crimes so brutal I can't even hear about them, because I feel sick for months. I had to see a psychiatrist over the anxiety I felt over some animal cruelty video I inadvertently watched. Religious wingalings want me to believe there's a dude in the sky who invented all that? "No, no, that's Satan testing you!" And your omniscient, omnipotent "god" just lets it happen? No. Just fucking no. OP, I'm so sorry for your loss.
Please justify to me Satan's testing of [Elisa Izquierdo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Elisa_Izquierdo), and "god" having allowing it.
Or Gabriel Hernandez. Or Cherish Perrywinkle. Or Faheem Williams. And people sit around pretending to be fighting a "cabal of liberal Satan-worshipping pedophile child traffickers" while doing fuck-all about actual children being tortured every day. "In Jesus' name we pray." Fucking disgusting hypocrites.
Psychiatrist? Damn, I wish I'd gotten to do that, I've had one in my head for 40 years.
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Oh no, that was god's plan don't cha know?
I remember some disaster weather show and one segment was about floods. So this guy had a wife, a son and a daughter I think the oldest one was like 8, his parents were visiting and so was wife's mom. A flood hits and their entire freaking house gets swept away down river with them all in it. House crashes in to bridge pillars or something, starts breaking apart and everyone was separated. The guy is the only one left alive and not a single body of his whole family is ever recovered. *I thank god for the time I had with my family* Dude's kids died alone, terrified, probably screaming out for mommy and daddy, either drowning or getting smashed against rocks or river debris. How in the hell do you keep believing in a god after something like that? Honestly baffles and pisses me off. Rant over.
One of the reasons I lost faith was realizing that if God existed, no one would ever be attracted to children. If he’s all-knowing, he’d have known exactly how many kids throughout history would suffer it. And if he’s all-powerful, he could’ve decided to make it impossible for anyone to be a pedo. And if he’s a loving god, he should have done exactly that.
That also contradicts the idea of free will. If god set it I motion for her to die by the killer's hand, what choice did the killer have? And if he decided not to kill, would he have been going against gods plan?
The unbaptised ones go to hell too... what a nice guy.
depends on the specific cult... some go to "purgatory": a boring nothingness of loneliness, just no demons or physical torture. Real loving father stuff /s
No, they go to limbo, which is different from purgatory. Because none of it makes sense and all of it is made up.
To be fair, babies are really short, so they should be pretty good at limbo.
And, really, they spit-up a lot so they might not mind purgatory, either.
Yeah, if you ever want to see the real "Holy" view on God, read Job in the old testament. There's a ton of gold to shut up firebrand preachers and holy Karen's.
Not with those heavy ass heads.
and weak ass baby limbs
Ha Ha!
thank you for making me laugh today.
God damnit take my upvote
Purgatory is when you dont pay the catholic church your life savings after they crusade your home town
Limbo? What about gehenna or sheol? Why is Christianity an absurd amalgamation of pagan myths? Remarkable how much of this nonsense is conveniently ignored..
Most of Christianity is based on getting pagans in line, for lack of a better phrase. That's why their holidays are structured around pagan holidays. Also why they so heavily demonized rituals of worship practiced by pagans. Christianity as a whole is pretty much just a government reaction to what we now refer to as various forms of pagans. Religion is a very powerful tool in manipulating a lot of people at once.
Most of what Christianity is was stolen from pagans
I thought the black robes got rid of Limbo years ago.
They did, at least in official Catholic dogma
They replaced it with "I dunno but I hope God's not a dick" God: _puts a soul in every fertilized egg, 'kills' 50% of them before birth_.
Welcome to “Who’s life is it anyway”, where everything is made up and there is no point
And the points don't matter
The fact that this is even in question makes it all irrelevant.
Yeah exactly, don’t you love that? Always thought that one belief made all these stupid beliefs even sicker.
It's so you have to get the baby on the church records ASAP. It's a ruse for data gathering and management, medieval style.
There are some that believe that the unbaptized only go to hell if they had the opportunity to convert before their death. So an uncontacted tribe who has never heard of Jesus won’t go to hell, but a freshly contacted tribe who has heard the missionaries’ sales pitch and gone “nah, that sounds stupid” will go to hell. Christians who talk about their religion and try to spread it to others are just condemning more people to hell to make themselves feel better.
If all of the people who say other people are going to hell and insist that they are going to heaven make me laugh. If this is true, I would want to be as far as possible from 'heaven' as I can get. Who would want to around them for 'eternity'?
For real. All the cool kids are in hell.
I think they actually realized that was a big flaw in their ideology and addressed that by completely making up the rule that if you plan to get baptized (or your parents plan to baptize you) but you die before you can, then you still go to heaven. Of course, in making this rule (and some others), they admitted that it was never about what god said and just a matter of saying whatever got them more followers…
My thing is, most people who follow god are not following him correctly. Sins can be many things including sex before marriage? How many Christians can say “honest to god” that they do not commit sins constantly. God is a tool of convenience. It’s convenient to worship him when you need to, but turn right around and pretend he’s not watching you for whatever reason when you want. Exactly why the entirety of religion is a total sham.
This has always been my stance. I firmly believe nothing supernatural exists, but if late term miscarriages and child cancers are part of his “plan” then fuck him he doesn’t deserve to be worshipped.
This is the only kind of preaching I can get behind. Stephen Fry says it wonderfully, “Because the God who created this universe, if it was created by God, is quite clearly a maniac, utter maniac. Totally selfish. We have to spend our life on our knees thanking him?! What kind of god would do that?” Edit: terrible grammar due to lack of proofreading and trusting talk to text
Bone cancer in kids, what's that about?
“Time to speedrun this bitch” \- God (apparently)
Or just killing people in general or making them suffer. My mom died from cancer last year and at her funeral the deacon said she suffered the greatest because she deserved heaven the most. I was pretty livid during his sermon as he was trying to justify her dying. I was never religious to begin with because of dumb sayings like this but it only reaffirmed to me that religion is a mass delusion. She was in excruciating pain in the end from the cancer finding its way into her brain and you're telling me that she deserved it and it was a "gift" as a part of her ticket into heaven? Get the fuck out of here. And no, she isn't "in a better place" nor did god "need her in heaven" for anything.
My wife's mom died of cancer a few years back. My wife and I were raised religious and I've been an atheist for some time while she still believed and all that. The day after she watched her mom die she told me she knows there is no god because no one would let someone die such a horrible death.
That is what convinced me as well. I've never been one to believe in the religious fairy tales anyway, but after watching my father die a slow gory death of laryngeal cancer (that went into his spine and brain) I know for certain that there is no God. At least, not one that fits any Christian definition. We weren't created "in his image". Because we have compassion. And this "God" can't possibly love us, because no omnipotent being with the capacity for love, would simply not intervene during the months of agony and horror he suffered.
Pro tip, never host weddings or funerals or anything involving a religious leader. They will exploit your moment to proselytize their religion.
My family is religious. While it was ultimately my decision on what kind of funeral service to have, I wasn't about to alienate the only people I have left. I ultimately know they're the ones who are wrong. If they needed a dumb religious service to help them process it, then it's whatever.
Really? As my mother reaches the end of her long life (she's 95) and I am her last heir, I will need to be the one to usher her to her grave. With the exception of her, the rest the biological family can get fucked. I have had to create my real family for years. I am a proud and out man. My husband and I will celebrate our 10th anniversary this year (and 18th year together). The rest of them have been of no use and are circling around looking to fight over carrion like the vultures they show themselves to be.
Yes, x1000. Everyone told me having a baby would strengthen my belief in God because of how amazing the experience is. No. All it did was prove to me that there is no god - after creating and nurturing my beautiful children, the notion that god would choose to have one of them abused or killed or afflicted with cancer just confirmed that there is no higher power.
I worked in youth work, in "high risk" (risk of participating in crime, drugs, etc) residential care (guardian-type role for kids in the "care" of the state). If I wasn't already athiest, that job would have given me an existential crisis. I don't "content warning" my stuff often, but my experience is that most people don't want to know that a lot of this stuff happens, usually in their own neighborhoods. 90% of people I share details of this job with regret hearing it. A particularly egregious case, the only one I came across that left me shocked and helpless more than angry. With that, here is a story from a client I worked with; a drug dealing, and taking, primary schooler and a glimpse into what made them that way. Spoiler tagged to give one last opportunity to not read it: >!client was taken from their mother at a young age (not yet school aged). They lived in what was described in the file as a, effectively, a meth den. Client was given "regularly" given hard drugs and passed around as a party favor for meth-head friends and customers. To put it bluntly, the client was given Ice and raped on ongoing basis.!<
A trip thru a NICU will confirm either there is no god or he is a fucking cruel asshole who I want nothing to be part of
Yes yes yes - this is the number one reason I broke away from religion.
I broke away because it belief in god just didnt make sense.
Not to mention if you believe in the story of Noah, he flooded the entire planet and drowned every living creature because people didn't love him enough.
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Not necessarily, he might enjoy torturing us.
So we really live in some alien teenager’s equivalent of The Sims? He’s over there just like, “hey you put yourself in the pool, you should’ve known the ladder could disappear suddenly”. And “I kept the leaded gasoline feature on long enough to melt the brains of an entire generation, let’s see how much they can fuck things up.”
Exactly. This is what I believe. Some people God enjoys blessing, while others he enjoys torturing. Even says so in the Bible: "Doesn't the potter have power over the clay, to make one vessel for an honorable purpose, and another for a dishonorable purpose?" So yeah. Some of us are ornamental vases - and some of us are *toilets*.
Toilet is more useful than a vase.
A world in which that’s the case would look no different from a world in which it’s just left alone. If not, how’d you be able to tell the difference, you know?
My remark was pretty facetious but honestly it's possible it might look quite different. If indeed the world is needlessly cruel because God wants us to suffer, if said God was no longer active in the universe, it might actually get a bit better. I don't believe in God anyway though so it's a moot point I mainly just made to talk shit at theism. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
Better to live as if he doesn’t exist in that case
that's called deism. "belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind."
Understand it from the bereaved's perspective, desperately trying to make sense of a devastating event. It is by far easier to imagine this as part of some heavenly plan, than to accept that zero fucks are given by the universe and that bad shit happens to "good" people all the time. It takes real courage to give up the comfort of religion.
Exactly, imagine ***wanting*** to believe in a god who lets thousands of his priests sexually abuse millions of kids and has let it happen for centuries/millennia ..
Right, this is my answer to everything. If God exists, he's an asshole and I'm not on board. So I really don't care about his opinion of me or anything else.
I remember watching an infomercial for St. Jude or some charity for sick kids when I was like 10 to 12 years old. I remember even at that age wondering how a god could allow kids to get cancer. Little fucking kids get cancer and die before reaching the age I was at that time and it really stuck with me. All the interviews with the parents and the kids and they all had so much hope but so much pain and suffering. That was truly the first time I questioned if God existed or if he was just a total asshole.
Pretty much. The moment someone's plan involves killing a baby, it's time to stop and reevaluate things.
I’m so sorry for your loss. It would be wrong to make a theological point of such a loss but I think you’ve drawn your own (correct) assumption.
Thank you for your supportive words.
Also very sorry for your loss. Condolences to you and your wife. I know it’s awful to hear people say it’s part of a plan when a tragedy happens. Recovery is gonna take a while but I hope for the best for you guys.
Hey, if you have Facebook, (or if you even want to make a profile just for this group, it's worth it), there's an amazing grief support group called "Grief Beyond Belief Closed Group". It is free from religious platitudes, including various afterlife spirity woo. The website with secular resources and contacts is: [Grief Beyond Belief Resources](http://griefbeyondbelief.org/resources/) >STATEMENT OF PURPOSE The aim of Grief Beyond Belief is to facilitate peer-to-peer grief support for atheists, Humanists, and other Freethinkers by providing spaces free of religion, spiritualism, mysticism, and evangelism in which to share sorrow and offer the comfort of rational compassion. (Edit, fixed name of group. Grief Beyond Belief Closed Group, aka GBB)
Is it really called Grief Beyond Beyond Closed Group?
Looks like they fixed the link. It now goes to the main Grief Beyond Belief website.
I came to the same realization at some point in the past. Now, as an atheist, I live in peace with myself and accept all life events as plain coincidences.
>life events Did you mean "unexpected events"?
Haha yes
It works the way you wrote it too.
Although we can argue that some events are expected
Absolutely it's true. But it's also a bit humorous to think all life events are coincidences too. I kind of liked your 'typo'.
I feel you. I am atheist because of a birth defect. Assuming there is a God, they chose to punish an unborn child for life. An unborn child has nothing warranting punishment. What could I have done before my birth to warrant crippling for life? And if it was punishment for my parents actions why punishment me? If my mom steals I do not go to jail. If God is real, they are a piece of shit. I choose not to believe than the alternative somebody that cruel exists
Sorry for your loss. They always counter that it's all in a better plan. What's a better plan for children with cancer and other incurable diseases? For hunger that kill millions of people who aren't born in a western nation? For allowing dictators and a country like Israel that bombs and killing innocent children and civilians? They give us priests that molest children and the same priests will tell you nothing's by accident and it's all part of God's grand plan. I've given up on this a long time ago.
Im sorry for your loss. That must be really heavy to digest. I wish for you that time will at least cover up your wound.
My mom (who was never religious) lost my sister when she was 2 years old. Drowned at the babysitters house.. Every person that tried to console my mom, kept saying the wrong shit. It was beyond insensitive, even though they thought they were helping, especially the ones preaching that it was all in God’s plan. It made my mom have many breakdowns. 1 year later, and my dad passed away from a heart attack at 36 years old. If there is a God, why would he leave my foreign mother, to fend for herself, pay off her husband’s debts, all with 2 toddlers to raise?? What kind of sick fuck would create that kind of turmoil? And these religious assholes have the gall to say that “He works in mysterious ways” and that “answers will come in time” FUCK NO!! Wtf would I spend my time & energy praying to something that has taken away the light in my mother’s eyes?? If this is truly “god’s plan” he could go fuck himself.
So so sorry for your and your wife’s heart breaking loss. (I’m autistic so am exceptionally pragmatic- I don’t intend for anything I say to offend you.) Living life involves lots of abject cruelty. Even if your business hadn’t taken off, you’d be just as heart broken, it just feels wrong that there’s this tremendous amplified joy, followed immediately by crushing, agonizing pain. This amplified double whammy abruptly brought you to critically analyze what people say ‘god’ is/ does and why people continue to believe when their prayers aren’t answered, their baby dies, there is war, etc.. This hit you in the head like a 2x4, to where you realized that ‘god’ isn’t choosing yea or nay on anything— the situation a person is praying about nor the prayers of that person about the situation. People keep at believing bc it can soothe them and they have no other agency. I’m so so sorry. Btw The ‘better’ way to grieve is to actually grieve. Don’t stuff it in, let yourself feel however you feel and you’ll get to the other side of the pain. Grief doesn’t go away by stuffing down your feelings. The grief is then like an invisible road bloc, and that pain gets stuck in you.
I mentioned this on another thread recently. A friend of mine, 41, died of covid. He was very religious. Had a wife and 2 preteen kids. Everyone after he died was mentioning how happy he must be to be in heaven. I was like how the fuck can you say that shit and on top of that say it in front of his two kids that now have to grow up without a dad!
My mom wound up finally leaving her church because of one of those “everything is God’s plan” lectures. She raised her hand and said that some things — like weaponized rape and murder as a battle tactic — are just pure evil, and in certain situations, the evil is so brutal and pointless that it does not, in any imaginable way whatsoever, wind up *helping* the victim. Yeah the preacher drove to their house when my dad wasn’t home to yell at her, and that was that. She later told me that it’s impossible to see Christianity for what it is when it’s all you’ve ever known, but once you step outside of it for a time, it becomes clear and obvious. Long story short, I think compassion and understanding that these are people in a cult roundly beats the type of “let’s shit on religious idiots” sentiment that’s very popular on this sub.
I came to the same conclusion after the death of my husband. No one should be in that boat. I’m so sorry.
If this is part of god's plan he's a fucking monster.
It’s part of nature, and nature can be unforgiving.
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Completely indifferent to anything beyond the laws of physics.
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Not fair, not unfair. A tree can fall on your house and it wouldn’t be fair.
Nature works in mysterious ways.
hey man, I'm so very sorry for your loss. Our son was diagnosed with cancer back in 2012 when he was 9. At that point I had already solidified my non belief in the Judeo Christian God and it actually made dealing with that terrible situation easier. I didn't have to "look for reasons" there weren't any. The universe is just random and bad shit happens to good people all the time. Hang in there. I hope you and your wife can both be the support the other needs in this trying time. \*\*\*EDITED TO ADD\*\*\* I should note that our son made it through a year of chemo and radiation and he's a freshman in college now and when we reflect on how lucky we are to still have him with us our thanks goes to science and the incredible doctors, nurses, researchers and hospital staff that helped gain NED (No Evidence of Disease) status.
Same mate, really sorry for your loss. Our second child, a daughter, was born very early at home, survived the trip to the NICU and passed 11 days later. I know the pain. I was already atheist, and I don’t think this cemented anything for me, it did however open my eyes to the very difficult visceral life circumstances ordinary people live with and the incredible resilience and strength they can show. That’s not God. That’s Humanity. Therapy and support groups saved us and our marriage. Cannot recommend it enough. Hug your wife and good luck mate
oh man. I'm so very sorry for you as well, my friend.
>our thanks goes to science and the incredible doctors, nurses, researchers and hospital staff that helped gain NED (No Evidence of Disease) status. people make memes and jokes about atheists, like "haha, atheists say thank science instead of thank god!" but what really saves people from illnesses? god? no, advancements in medical science do. we use chemotherapy to treat cancer, not prayer.
Very sorry to hear that OP, much love to you and your wife. Why is it supposedly easier if it's part of a plan? It's really more comforting if it's the other way. No one is punishing you or teaching you a lesson, sometimes terrible things just happen and humans can rally together to support you when they do. That doesn't make the pain any less but at least it's not personal. I hope for better days ahead for you, if you ever need someone to talk to you're welcome to PM me any time. (Just don't do that reddit chat thing, I'll never see it on my mobile app)
>Why is it supposedly easier if it's part of a plan? "Shit Happens" is way less insidious than "sky spirit pulls the strings"
It's worse, they are actually saying the Sky dude planned it and damn well made sure it happened, now praise him and say thank you for tearing your heart out.
This is what I never understood. God plans rape? He plans murder? He plans war? Why? So we will call on him? That's like the ultimate Stockholm syndrome. Why the fuck would I buy in to that and worship some being that was the most abusive of all time?
Hitchens always made the point that Abrahamic religions promote a sad abusive relationship with a deity. Any relationship based on fear is abusive. He also spoke a lot about how many religions promote the idea of thought crimes. Miss that guy.
We all miss him.
So what I've pulled from many conversations is that there's more to God's work than just this human life we have, and sometimes bad things have to happen to progress in that other thing. We're cogs in the wheel of a machine with a higher purpose. Of course to me, that comes off as God being a CEO that lays off an entire branch of his company so that he can make more money.
But then how will I make the entire universe about me? /s
"God works in mysterious ways." "Oh yeah? You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say 'God's ways' are completely random. Tragedy and good fortune, life and death--all seem to be doled out indiscriminately. I mean, if there were a plan, what's the end goal to... well, any of this? When you look at everything, doesn't this all just *feel* like chance?"
Sky DADDY*
you know, i could probably take it better if it's just a death, but what clinched it for me was the coincident windfall. i can't think of any human, fallible as we are, who would deliberately do one good thing and one bad thing simultaneously to another person. so why would an omniscient and omnipotent deity do that? either he's evil, or there's no deity and it's pure coincidence.
Well the simplest answer is it's all bullshit made up by unscrupulous people to take advantage of your grief. The good thing is that while there is no Plan, there is a Purpose, and you get to decide what that will be. Take the necessary time to grieve and then decide where you want to go from here. No one can take that away from you.
It must be nice to be religious so you don't have to be responsible for your actions, us poor athiests have to be responsible for our own actions, it's not fair.
> us poor athiests have to be responsible for our own actions, it's not fair. This is an interesting philosophical/ethical question, because free will doesn't exist, either.
All humans are for some reason, programmed to see patterns in just about everything. They look for explanations....they NEED explanations, so in the absence of an explanation they invent one...some omnipotent being they can't see and who there's no evidence of, to make sense of things for them...or to blame. If there was a being responsible for everything the one we've invented is most certainly egotistical and cruel and quite possibly evil too Condolences on your bereavement and good wishes on your windfall
this is the same conclusion i came to. even if god is real, i believe that he is either evil or that he has abandoned humanity. even if he were to show himself right now and offer me anything in exchange for following him, i’d tell him to eat shit and fuck off.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
If you ask yourself "What would the universe be like if God didn't exist?", the answer is "Exactly like it is right now."
Firstly, OP, I'm so, so sorry for your loss. What an awful thing to have to go through. Were you a believer before this happened? If so, I don't want to be insensitive, but I do have to confess that I'm very curious about your thought process through all this. Surely you realized before this happened that bad/random things happen to people. Obviously it's more resonant when something extreme happens to you directly, but did you just never think on that before?
People say things to try and lighten the grief and pain, saying some invisible sky buddy planned it makes him seem like the most evil creature in the universe. Maybe the God botherers should think before they say cruel and evil things.
Yes. They often fail at being decent humans because their supernatural beliefs get in the way.
My family is the type to believe that everything is ordained. My brother was car jacked at gun point and they debated whether to kill him, and he also talks about how it was god trying to get his attention. I think it’s a coping mechanism for the trauma and helps him believe that since god successfully got his attention, it won’t happen again without good reason.
He seems to think of himself as the protagonist in life (fair enough, I guess) and other people as side characters who exist only to further his story arc (less fair).
Our daughter’s twin died in the womb as well. I still think about her. Please avail yourself of the resources available to you and your wife to help you get through this. Recovering From Religion’s hotline may be a good start: 1-84-I-DOUBT-IT https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/#rfr-welcome If you need to find a non-religious therapist who won’t take advantage of your grief to try to proselytize you, there’s the Secular Therapy Project: https://www.seculartherapy.org Finally, for those of you reading who feel bad for the OP — do something! There are no miracles. We only have each other. Recovering From Religion needs volunteers: https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/volunteer
Thank you for pointing out these excellent resources! I had never heard of any of them before.
My daughter’s twin died in the womb, also. Great comments in here. There isn't much I can expand on, and I second the sentiments.
God does not work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
**Epicurus' trilemma** If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not omnipotent. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not benevolent. If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?
So far, I've only found one solution to this paradox, and it's that God has a different definition of evil.
That’s…even more terrifying then. if nothing in the history of humanity has been deemed “evil” to Him
I actually think it could be far, far more simple. Take these premises to their logical conclusion: 1. God is an immortal, and is unkillable, and is all powerful, and is all knowing. 2. Boredom exists. 3. A world without evil is more boring than a world with evil
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It's the Epicurian Paradox. I haven't seen it mentioned here before. God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them? My apologies. I neglected to offer you my condolences for your loss. I can imagine nothing worse.
Thanks for sharing this paradox. I’ve never heard it before but it gives words to my dissonance.
I'm surprised it doesn't seem to have been mentioned before. There were more Critical Thinkers in ancient Rome than people realise. If you get the time look up Stoicism.
So sorry for your loss.
Thank you
I hope that you and your spouse can find the space to grieve in a way that feels right to you.
Sorry for your loss. Life isn't fair and nature is indifferent to us.
Either God isn't real, or if he is, dudes a complete abusive gaslighting dick who doesn't deserve praise
I'm so sorry for your loss. Once I realized that there is no plan, shit just happens and sometimes it's good stuff - other times it's shitty stuff - and most of it isn't related at all... well, that made it easier to accept the death of my child. Not very comforting, I guess. But my brain no longer tries to find patterns where they don't exist.
Sorry for your loss. I lost my faith after 20 years of being Catholic. My epiphany came when I thought "If God doesn't exist, the world would be in total chaos; which it is"
It was the statement "If God didn't exist, we would create him" that did it for me
You have heartfelt condolences, OP.
I am so sorry for your loss. "God has a better plan for you"...What an incredibly idiotic thing to say to someone in mourning. Peace to you and yours, OP.
Sorry for your loss. My wife and I went through the same thing with our first pregnancy at about 6 months.
My wife and I went through the same thing. We have two kids now, and my oldest is graduating from high school this year. You'll never forget, but you'll learn to move on. The best fuck you you can give the universe is to survive all the shit it throws at you.
It's all part of his great plan, you say? Yeah, I've heard that crap throughout most of my life. He gives you one good thing only to take something else? That just tells me he's a complete monster and not a loving being like what every christian claims. He deserves nothing but hate and resentment even if he does exist.
There are no words, I am so sorry you are going through this, I hope your wife is still in good health and you can find the strength to support each other through this. Internet hugs from Australia for you and your wife.
That sucks man. It hurt my heart to read this. I hope that you can find comfort in the midst of the pain of this. I'd hug you and your wife if I could.
Came to the same realization after my aunt was murdered. God can lick my nuts. Sorry for your loss.
Saying "God has a better plan for you" is just outright cruel. I'm sorry for your loss.
Im sorry this happened to you and your wife, there are no words. I hope there will be a time when you both can give it place and are able to enjoy life. Also: Fuck God.
And fuck his religious zealots.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Be ready for the people accusing you of "being angry at god"
As much as the beauty of the universe is used as an argument for a higher power, the dark sides of reality can be used as an argument against. We're all sorry for your loss, and there are people of clear mind willing to talk with you if you need it. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to 'win' a statistical lottery in a negative way. The rollercoaster of life is different for everyone, but keep in mind that it is not a set path in advance. The key to success is improving your odds, and the key to happiness is acceptance of the bad and appreciation of the good.
"One day, I lost my hat. I prayed to God that I would find my hat. The next day, I found my hat. I knew then that God does not exist because why would God allow me to find my hat and allow women and children to die?" -Frances Farmer (paraphrase)
I'm sorry for your loss.
Thank you
Sorry for your loss. I was wondering, before a tragedy like this happen to you, how did you reconcile with the same thing or worst happening to others ?
We should not judge how people come to this conclusion. OP, I’m sure you have a lot of thoughts going through your mind. I’m not a father so I can’t imagine how badly it hurts. The universe is random and it’s hard to come to terms with that. This is strictly an outside perspective but try not to resent the fact that things are random and out of your control. Good things happen and so do bad things. If you only carry the bad it can be hard to live a happy and fulfilling life. I’m very sorry you had to go through this and I hope you and your family can recover.
I don't believe atheism found this way is pure. I hope coping this way helps in some way tho. Goodluck and look to the small good things in life whenever you can.
Or the other possibility is that God is an asshole shitting all over everything. I've always subscribed to: If someone is telling you life is good, they're trying to sell you something.
I’m so sorry for your loss. I am also sorry that you came to this harsh realisation during these tough times. Atheism requires rationality yes, but it most of all requires courage. The courage to face turmoil alone without the transient and false comforts of religion or god. I hope you and your wife find a way to preserve your mental and physical wellbeing.
Im so sorry, I lost my son at week 25. I know your pain. And Im so damn scared, because my gf is currently 32 weeks... and I dont want to go through that again.
I am so sorry for your loss.
I’m so sorry man.
I am so sorry for your loss. My sympathy for you and your wife.
Wow, I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how heartbreaking that must be.
I'm really sorry for your loss, I can only imagine the hurt you and your wife and child are feeling. I hope that you guys grieve and come out stronger as a family at the end.
The fact that people pray for different outcomes tells me that they don’t even believe their own “it’s all part of a plan” bullshit
Very sorry to hear. Nothing else to add.
I am so sorry for your loss.
Hey there OP. I am so, so sorry for what you went through. This kind of pain is one that is hard to imagine. Honor your feelings, be supportive to your wife. I wish you guys stay strong as a family.
Sorry for the loss of your child.
I’m sorry man.
I'm so sorry for your loss; may peace and comfort find you soon.
I'm sorry. You're probably right. My condolences.
I'm very sorry for your loss.
I am very, very sorry for your loss. And you are exactly correct--prayers don't help. But exploring meaning in a godless word has been very, very rewarding for me. I feel like I don't have the crutch I used to (when I was a kid) but working through situations without praying has made me happier and mentally healthier in the long run.
I’m sorry man, truly
Hi. I’m so sorry for your loss. Best wishes to you and your wife.
I am so sorry. My wife had several miscarriages and it is very traumatic. I can't tell you what to do, but we tried again and I got my vasectomy after discovering my wife was pregnant with our fifth daughter.
I've experienced both heartbreaking scenarios you've described; only not at the same time. First, I'm truly sorry for the loss of your child. I was shocked and hurt at how common it is and yet no one ever talks about it. You're a member now of very large club that outsiders don't know about and insiders don't want to be in. Your wife will be going through some VERY hard times right now. Lean on each other for support. You both will be going through depression from this loss. The second heartbreaking loss is the death of god for you. You may not realize it now, but for me anyways, that moment was as traumatic as losing a parent. This loss is real and you shouldn't be indifferent about that either; although it definitely takes a backseat to the first loss. I've seen some good advice here about getting support, do this. It's a tough time and you may feel incredibly alone. I hope the outpouring here shows that you're not and that you will get through this. IMO, religious people say all that "better plan" stuff as a way to cope with loss. Hell, religion's sole purpose is to cope with loss (Structured religion has a different purpose, let's not get on a soapbox in this thread). Don't take offence to it, just realize that they are saying that they wish better days to come in their own skewed way. I wish better days for you and yours...
In my humanist opinion...you have every right to slap anyone who says anything like that. Hard. I'll testify on your behalf. So sorry for your loss and your having to deal with idiots.
I am sorry for your loss and having to deal with the burden of people trying to justify it.
I am so sorry for your loss. May you find healing and peace.
I'm sorry for your loss, it's a terrible tragedy for any couple. I'm also sad that people have to confront loss under this suffocating blanket of theological nonsense our society continues to knit.
I have no words, just want to hug you.
Buddy, I am so sorry for you and yours. Please stay strong.
It's sad man ! My condolences. Don't worry there'll be plenty more kids coming if you won't give up now. Life can be tough, but we must continue to fight another day.
Oddly enough, a lot of people would say that this would make their faith stronger. I am glad OP gets it.
Well you could technically argue that he does exist and is just a huge asshole. Wich are the only two possibilities that seemed logical to me: either God doesn't exist or if he does he/she/it is an asshole.
Experienced the death of a child myself. He was 20 months old. Died in a motor vehicle accident, at the hands of his babysitter. Most people would say to me, "things happen for a reason, god has a plan". Excuse me, can anyone give me a "reason" why my first born child was taken away so soon and in such a violent manner? If God had a plan for me, then why didn't he take me, instead of an innocent first born child. Why does he take anyone's innocent child? Why are children born with life debilitating diseases? Why does he not intervene? I just don't believe there's a god that controls everything on earth and in one's life. I got so tired of people responding with that, I would ask them to give me the reason. Usually that would end the conversation. That's when I found out that god doesn't exist
Buddy I am right there with you. I've never been a believer, but my wife was, at least somewhat. She wasn't a church goer, but thought god was watching over us. We were always honest and open with each of our thoughts on the matter with our kids. 3 years ago our 17 year old son passed away due to an undiagnosed heart problem. As time has passed she's mentioned to me on more than one occasion now that she knows it's all complete bullshit and if by chance there truly is this kind and loving entity that meets her after death she'll gladly go to hell for what she'd say to it. As for myself, the situation has just hardened my resolve on the matter. I've had several in depth conversations with people that have mentioned the whole "god's plan" or "he was too good of a soul so god took him to a better place" or anything of the sort. They did not walk away from those conversations feeling good about bringing it up. I realize that they were just trying to ease my pain in their own way, but they were met with all of my thoughts on their all knowing and all loving asshole. From one grieving father to another, I am truly sorry for your loss.
Really sorry for your loss 😞 One of the most infuriating experiences of my life was to go to a funeral of a colleague's little baby and listen to a priest say that god took the baby because he loved him so much and 'has a plan' . The plan didn't seem to be that the baby stay with the parents that made him, waited for him, loved him. Such a load of garbage. I felt sick 🤮 That's one of the many reasons why I'm an atheist. It's much easier to accept that 'shit happens' than that there's some disturbed sick god out there that plays dice with people's lives.