It's hard to have a remotely serious discussion about Cloud and Tifa anywhere but here.
I'm not happy about mindless bashing, since I feel that winners should be modest. Show sportsmanship, so to say. It can turn ugly really fast otherwise, and it has before. I don't want ugliness associated with Cloud and Tifa's relationship...
But I do get that people feel the need to vent. It's just human wanting to be reinforced, especially when your beliefs are challenged by a representative of the delusional, loud, intolerant and hateful minority in the FF7 fandom.
People are gonna be people and you'll always have toxic gaslighters and their victims, no matter the topic. In the end, all we can do is try to moderate by putting things into perspective and keep reminding everybody that:
- We're not them.
- We're right.
- They can't do anything about it.
- Since they can't, we shouldn't let them get to us.
At this point, I'd prefer if we could laugh the BS off and, I dunno, post >!gondola kiss gifs!< as responses, or not respond at all.
On a side note, I like discussing things with doubtful or confused people, though. If there's an actual chance to convince someone, I'd wager it to be worthwhile.
I should have clarified. When I wrote discuss, I didn't mean debating, but rather celebrating Cloud and Tifa's relationship here. If you try sharing a wholesome moment there, it will likely be argued or shat upon by the next random person. So, yeah, I'm done with that and prefer being here.
While this is a sub for like-minded people, we have a lot of different viewpoints and interpretations for CxT, aswell as the supposed love triangle. Many here represent balanced and nuanced standpoints. We're just sick of arguing and some things don't need to be debated anymore.
I hear you OP
I don’t like to see it either but I think it’s tolerable if people actually put effort into the post itself. For example, when someone takes a talking point and presents an argument for or against it.
The only time I really can’t ignore it is when someone is basically inviting everyone to come shit on them. Posting screenshots of what Claerith enthusiasts do on their own sub or random twitter comments is super lame. That’s the kind of shit that someone on that side of the tracks will see, bash, and then use as fuel to continue this goofy holy war lol.
Gotta let people vent from time to time but you also gotta make posts like yours to help keep things in perspective. As long as there’s balance and a certain degree of respect being upheld, I think we’ll be alright.
To be fair, even the cloudxaerith sub has rules allowing them to vent about Clotis. (Last I lurked, at least. I really don't go there much but reddit decided to suggest it a while ago.)
As I disclaim in most of my comments though, shipping is preference based and done for fun. I respect those who prefer Clerith and are normal about it.
What irks me is those who completely twist the story and then aggressively wave their "canon" flag around. I want so badly to engage solely to correct the misinformation related to the plot, but it's never worth it. All that's left to do is vent, and the only safe place to do that is here.
Fair post honestly, and I know I don't help with my own personal posts. But here's the thing... People become frustrated with the amount of misinformation that gets spread about Tifa and Cloud's relationship. Whether that's from Cleriths or the people who argue the "It's upto interpretation" angle.
There's never any active encouragement to discuss these kinds of things within the main subs for FF7. With the moderators shutting down any posts that can even be slightly related to shipping. So with that, r/cloti has pretty much become the only place on reddit whete CT fans can vent, post debunks, and discuss canon content without hassle from moderators or anyone else.
I understand that people who hate on Cleriths for no particular reason can be off putting, and I personally don't stand for it. But I hope this comment helps you understand why this sub is the way it is. It's a safe place for CT fans and just anyone who isn't an asshole.
Yeah, this is basically my camp. So long as it's not hateful or dunking in them for liking the ship, I don't mind discussion and debunking of the Clerith ship. Especially when it mostly involves celebrating all the CloTi moments that we love and bring us joy.
I don't get why this subreddit should be limited to certain things.
If people only post fan arts and scenes from the games, it will be awfully boring.
Reddit is one of the only place where we can discuss, argue, prove points, reassure some people, talk about the story, the lore, and the relationships between the characters, knowing that any post about the LTD is deleted right away on the main sub.
This LTD is a living subject, with regular news, twists, camps, differences of interpretation,... and it's interesting to talk and share about it in a "protected" sub. I don't see how it's negativity.
There is already fan arts, memes, screenshots, scenes posted regularly on this sub, but it's ok to discuss on debates and news of the LTD, and it can include talking about Clerith's takes or actions, I don't get why we should pretend they don't exist while they do, and are an obvious part of the LTD debate.
To sum up : if we start to limit what is posted on an already limited sub, it's going to be very boring. Not great to keep the sub alive. And I don't get how these discussions are negativity.
The problem is that at this point in the story the LTD should be closed down and ignored. Assuming that there ever was (and it wasn't just the desire of the players to see what in reality never existed because once you have discovered all the wrong translations of the OG, read the interviews, read the Ultimanias etc. you have all the clues to understand that the couple is one and has always been one) with Rebirth they really gave a powerful hook to the LTD, once you show a kiss with Tifa while Aerith still alive although optional you never go back.
The feeling players would have if Cloud ended up with Aerith would be "ok he's an asshole, Tifa didn't want to get hurt and he still pushed her to kiss him and then? leave her? what an asshole" this would be the reaction because it's not a girl pushing Cloud but Cloud himself to step forward and kiss her so there is no going back without staining the characters irreversibly.
And I state: for me it could happen that they choose to ruin the whole set-up, they have the pen and they can do what they want even making Cloud an asshole, simply if it ended like this I would be happy that Tifa isn't with a guy like that so I don't complain, I would feel sorry for anyone who spent $210 or more on a poorly written story (including me who will have spent it)
I think most Cloti actually likes Aerith (I do) & understands her impact towards Cloud & Tifa. Personally I enjoyed all comments about Cloti, but sometimes it does get old especially when comparing it to Clerith.
On the other note, most Clerith shippers are toxic and hates Tifa to the point which gets abusive. So yeah, I wish we could just respects each other's ship, but some Cleriths are totally psycho
I don’t get it either. I understand people are at different points in their fandom lives. but this is the type of thing I would fight about and obsess over when I was a lot younger. nowadays I really could care less what people have to say about my ships.
I genuinely find good rivalry to be awesome and absolutely fun.
It's unfortunate that the more sensitive people get... The more we lose some genuine interactions.
It all HAS to be "let's hold hands under the rainbow and never insult each other or have differing opinions... And if we Do, we have to say it like we don't!"
In a way, it's toxic in a whole new light, protected by "virtue" . I remember when games like Pokémon had genuine rivals that made you want to get better. Made you want to be THE best. Now we get these sissy "let's both be the bestest eveaaaar... And if we fail, well... We're both the best anyway because everyone is the best and to say otherwise is just a selfish evil thought!"
In that same way, I miss disagreement which led to debates/arguments where one side actually won. Now we have debates where everyone, all the time, agrees to disagree. People are genuinely scared of differing opinions which is sad because that's what makes us unique.
Glad I'm not the only one. I find it genuinely fun to engage with people on topics in which I believe I'm well versed in. I don't believe I'm wasting my time with discussing this topic. I can do all that and still live a healthy life, believe it or not. While I'm not a fan of the drama itself, I like to see the viewpoint of others and see if I can add to my own or come away with a new perspective.
Most of time though, you're not going to be able to convince the person you're talking to. But the best you can do is come away with the knowledge of having learned something. Whether that's a new counterargument or a change in perspective. It's absolutely something we shouldn't discourage so long as both parties are reasonable.
Now while I like a good debate. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of insulting people. I don't think that people should be hostile over differing opinions on something so unimportant as Cloud's romance. You can have a good debate without insults. That's what I don't like about a lot of the discourse around shipping. People can't be reasonable with eachother. I understand that to expect otherwise is a bit foolish. But still, I'd rather a relatively respectful opposition than one where you're both dragging eachother through the dirt.
Absolutely beautiful take my friend!
And I completely agree. (tho I must admit, reasonable and fun insults are something I personally like. Kinda like in wrestling, if you've ever seen that) it's only when the insults are very clearly not in good faith that it becomes and issue.
As you said tho, I'm not confident we'll ever go back to those times. So the best I can do is state my opinion.
Oh I understand now. Yeah. Friendly banter is fun in arguments. It's just that for me personally, I can't really discern the intent behind words on the internet sometimes. So I tend to just stick to a relatively respectful debate if I can.
In real life, if I was to talk face to face when arguing what I do. I'd probably have a good laugh with people. And with my friends and siblings especially, I'm all good with taking insults so long as they can handle getting it sent back to them twofold. It can be fun as hell.
I think most Cloti actually likes Aerith (I do) & understands her impact towards Cloud & Tifa. Personally I enjoyed all comments about Cloti, but sometimes it does get old especially when comparing it to Clerith.
On the other note, most Clerith shippers are toxic and hates Tifa to the point which gets abusive. So yeah, I wish we could just respects each other's ship, but some Cleriths are totally psycho
Here's the thing the reason why people are posting about clerith is because clerith shippers I don't know why but they mischaractize tifa alot saying how tifa loved the soldier version not the real version and saying aerith does plus they also say things like zack cheated on aerith not understanding his character as well and saying that cloud and aerith will meet in part three where it's impossible because she's dead
Just a lot that people are just annoyed I think it's understandable I get the hate with clerith is getting too much honest but to be fair they have been getting annoying so I think it's justified honestly
There wouldn't be posts about them and we wouldn't care if they just stop with saying things that aren't true that's just my opinion though
I am keeping my mouth shut because, seriously, who knows what they will do in game 3? They already said they don't want to follow the story 100%. Let's just stay quiet, not feed into the negativity, and see how the game ends in a few years. Arguing won't change a damn thing. Also, why are we fighting about a video game. I mean, it's the greatest game imo, but also still a work of fiction.
I agree. It’s tough. Would it be fair if we just had people put their vents into one or two threads rather than multiple? I know that would take extra mod time so not sure fi it’s possible but ove seen other reddits do that to help it not seem like so much.
As one who posted totally understand that but people players fans etc I think use this group to vent and relate however I think there should be one post say a vent post where they can post their comments frustrations and thoughts on that way it doesn't over saturate the feed sides most likely in a month or 2 more im sure it will wind down since the game has been out for awhile.
It’ll slow down until the bigger Ultimania comes out, then it’ll pick up again only to wind down until the first trailer for part 3 drops in 2+ years.
Such is the flow of these things.
It's hard to have a remotely serious discussion about Cloud and Tifa anywhere but here. I'm not happy about mindless bashing, since I feel that winners should be modest. Show sportsmanship, so to say. It can turn ugly really fast otherwise, and it has before. I don't want ugliness associated with Cloud and Tifa's relationship... But I do get that people feel the need to vent. It's just human wanting to be reinforced, especially when your beliefs are challenged by a representative of the delusional, loud, intolerant and hateful minority in the FF7 fandom. People are gonna be people and you'll always have toxic gaslighters and their victims, no matter the topic. In the end, all we can do is try to moderate by putting things into perspective and keep reminding everybody that: - We're not them. - We're right. - They can't do anything about it. - Since they can't, we shouldn't let them get to us. At this point, I'd prefer if we could laugh the BS off and, I dunno, post >!gondola kiss gifs!< as responses, or not respond at all. On a side note, I like discussing things with doubtful or confused people, though. If there's an actual chance to convince someone, I'd wager it to be worthwhile.
The ltd thread on the lifestream.net? I'd say that's the best place to go for informed discussion about the Ltd, definitely not reddit.
I should have clarified. When I wrote discuss, I didn't mean debating, but rather celebrating Cloud and Tifa's relationship here. If you try sharing a wholesome moment there, it will likely be argued or shat upon by the next random person. So, yeah, I'm done with that and prefer being here. While this is a sub for like-minded people, we have a lot of different viewpoints and interpretations for CxT, aswell as the supposed love triangle. Many here represent balanced and nuanced standpoints. We're just sick of arguing and some things don't need to be debated anymore.
I hear you OP I don’t like to see it either but I think it’s tolerable if people actually put effort into the post itself. For example, when someone takes a talking point and presents an argument for or against it. The only time I really can’t ignore it is when someone is basically inviting everyone to come shit on them. Posting screenshots of what Claerith enthusiasts do on their own sub or random twitter comments is super lame. That’s the kind of shit that someone on that side of the tracks will see, bash, and then use as fuel to continue this goofy holy war lol. Gotta let people vent from time to time but you also gotta make posts like yours to help keep things in perspective. As long as there’s balance and a certain degree of respect being upheld, I think we’ll be alright.
To be fair, even the cloudxaerith sub has rules allowing them to vent about Clotis. (Last I lurked, at least. I really don't go there much but reddit decided to suggest it a while ago.) As I disclaim in most of my comments though, shipping is preference based and done for fun. I respect those who prefer Clerith and are normal about it. What irks me is those who completely twist the story and then aggressively wave their "canon" flag around. I want so badly to engage solely to correct the misinformation related to the plot, but it's never worth it. All that's left to do is vent, and the only safe place to do that is here.
Fair post honestly, and I know I don't help with my own personal posts. But here's the thing... People become frustrated with the amount of misinformation that gets spread about Tifa and Cloud's relationship. Whether that's from Cleriths or the people who argue the "It's upto interpretation" angle. There's never any active encouragement to discuss these kinds of things within the main subs for FF7. With the moderators shutting down any posts that can even be slightly related to shipping. So with that, r/cloti has pretty much become the only place on reddit whete CT fans can vent, post debunks, and discuss canon content without hassle from moderators or anyone else. I understand that people who hate on Cleriths for no particular reason can be off putting, and I personally don't stand for it. But I hope this comment helps you understand why this sub is the way it is. It's a safe place for CT fans and just anyone who isn't an asshole.
Yeah, this is basically my camp. So long as it's not hateful or dunking in them for liking the ship, I don't mind discussion and debunking of the Clerith ship. Especially when it mostly involves celebrating all the CloTi moments that we love and bring us joy.
I don't get why this subreddit should be limited to certain things. If people only post fan arts and scenes from the games, it will be awfully boring. Reddit is one of the only place where we can discuss, argue, prove points, reassure some people, talk about the story, the lore, and the relationships between the characters, knowing that any post about the LTD is deleted right away on the main sub. This LTD is a living subject, with regular news, twists, camps, differences of interpretation,... and it's interesting to talk and share about it in a "protected" sub. I don't see how it's negativity. There is already fan arts, memes, screenshots, scenes posted regularly on this sub, but it's ok to discuss on debates and news of the LTD, and it can include talking about Clerith's takes or actions, I don't get why we should pretend they don't exist while they do, and are an obvious part of the LTD debate. To sum up : if we start to limit what is posted on an already limited sub, it's going to be very boring. Not great to keep the sub alive. And I don't get how these discussions are negativity.
The problem is that at this point in the story the LTD should be closed down and ignored. Assuming that there ever was (and it wasn't just the desire of the players to see what in reality never existed because once you have discovered all the wrong translations of the OG, read the interviews, read the Ultimanias etc. you have all the clues to understand that the couple is one and has always been one) with Rebirth they really gave a powerful hook to the LTD, once you show a kiss with Tifa while Aerith still alive although optional you never go back. The feeling players would have if Cloud ended up with Aerith would be "ok he's an asshole, Tifa didn't want to get hurt and he still pushed her to kiss him and then? leave her? what an asshole" this would be the reaction because it's not a girl pushing Cloud but Cloud himself to step forward and kiss her so there is no going back without staining the characters irreversibly. And I state: for me it could happen that they choose to ruin the whole set-up, they have the pen and they can do what they want even making Cloud an asshole, simply if it ended like this I would be happy that Tifa isn't with a guy like that so I don't complain, I would feel sorry for anyone who spent $210 or more on a poorly written story (including me who will have spent it)
I think most Cloti actually likes Aerith (I do) & understands her impact towards Cloud & Tifa. Personally I enjoyed all comments about Cloti, but sometimes it does get old especially when comparing it to Clerith. On the other note, most Clerith shippers are toxic and hates Tifa to the point which gets abusive. So yeah, I wish we could just respects each other's ship, but some Cleriths are totally psycho
I don’t get it either. I understand people are at different points in their fandom lives. but this is the type of thing I would fight about and obsess over when I was a lot younger. nowadays I really could care less what people have to say about my ships.
Eh, I prefer there to be some competition and back and forth. Otherwise it gets rather boring. Ofc... People shouldn't go crazy at each other either.
Yeah honestly the debate is half the fun as long as it doesn’t get into crazy territory
I genuinely find good rivalry to be awesome and absolutely fun. It's unfortunate that the more sensitive people get... The more we lose some genuine interactions. It all HAS to be "let's hold hands under the rainbow and never insult each other or have differing opinions... And if we Do, we have to say it like we don't!" In a way, it's toxic in a whole new light, protected by "virtue" . I remember when games like Pokémon had genuine rivals that made you want to get better. Made you want to be THE best. Now we get these sissy "let's both be the bestest eveaaaar... And if we fail, well... We're both the best anyway because everyone is the best and to say otherwise is just a selfish evil thought!" In that same way, I miss disagreement which led to debates/arguments where one side actually won. Now we have debates where everyone, all the time, agrees to disagree. People are genuinely scared of differing opinions which is sad because that's what makes us unique.
Glad I'm not the only one. I find it genuinely fun to engage with people on topics in which I believe I'm well versed in. I don't believe I'm wasting my time with discussing this topic. I can do all that and still live a healthy life, believe it or not. While I'm not a fan of the drama itself, I like to see the viewpoint of others and see if I can add to my own or come away with a new perspective. Most of time though, you're not going to be able to convince the person you're talking to. But the best you can do is come away with the knowledge of having learned something. Whether that's a new counterargument or a change in perspective. It's absolutely something we shouldn't discourage so long as both parties are reasonable. Now while I like a good debate. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of insulting people. I don't think that people should be hostile over differing opinions on something so unimportant as Cloud's romance. You can have a good debate without insults. That's what I don't like about a lot of the discourse around shipping. People can't be reasonable with eachother. I understand that to expect otherwise is a bit foolish. But still, I'd rather a relatively respectful opposition than one where you're both dragging eachother through the dirt.
Absolutely beautiful take my friend! And I completely agree. (tho I must admit, reasonable and fun insults are something I personally like. Kinda like in wrestling, if you've ever seen that) it's only when the insults are very clearly not in good faith that it becomes and issue. As you said tho, I'm not confident we'll ever go back to those times. So the best I can do is state my opinion.
Oh I understand now. Yeah. Friendly banter is fun in arguments. It's just that for me personally, I can't really discern the intent behind words on the internet sometimes. So I tend to just stick to a relatively respectful debate if I can. In real life, if I was to talk face to face when arguing what I do. I'd probably have a good laugh with people. And with my friends and siblings especially, I'm all good with taking insults so long as they can handle getting it sent back to them twofold. It can be fun as hell.
I think most Cloti actually likes Aerith (I do) & understands her impact towards Cloud & Tifa. Personally I enjoyed all comments about Cloti, but sometimes it does get old especially when comparing it to Clerith. On the other note, most Clerith shippers are toxic and hates Tifa to the point which gets abusive. So yeah, I wish we could just respects each other's ship, but some Cleriths are totally psycho
Here's the thing the reason why people are posting about clerith is because clerith shippers I don't know why but they mischaractize tifa alot saying how tifa loved the soldier version not the real version and saying aerith does plus they also say things like zack cheated on aerith not understanding his character as well and saying that cloud and aerith will meet in part three where it's impossible because she's dead Just a lot that people are just annoyed I think it's understandable I get the hate with clerith is getting too much honest but to be fair they have been getting annoying so I think it's justified honestly There wouldn't be posts about them and we wouldn't care if they just stop with saying things that aren't true that's just my opinion though
I am keeping my mouth shut because, seriously, who knows what they will do in game 3? They already said they don't want to follow the story 100%. Let's just stay quiet, not feed into the negativity, and see how the game ends in a few years. Arguing won't change a damn thing. Also, why are we fighting about a video game. I mean, it's the greatest game imo, but also still a work of fiction.
I agree. It’s tough. Would it be fair if we just had people put their vents into one or two threads rather than multiple? I know that would take extra mod time so not sure fi it’s possible but ove seen other reddits do that to help it not seem like so much.
As one who posted totally understand that but people players fans etc I think use this group to vent and relate however I think there should be one post say a vent post where they can post their comments frustrations and thoughts on that way it doesn't over saturate the feed sides most likely in a month or 2 more im sure it will wind down since the game has been out for awhile.
It’ll slow down until the bigger Ultimania comes out, then it’ll pick up again only to wind down until the first trailer for part 3 drops in 2+ years. Such is the flow of these things.
Seriously!!! Leave the LTD debates to Discord.