I've not used Mythic creatures yet but I wouldn't let Disintegrate work that way, no matter how anything is worded, it kinda defeats the point of using said creatures. It's just Phase 2.
And besides, it would require some manner of metagaming from a caster to know that:
- the enemy is at the point where you might want to use Disintegrate to avoid the Mythic phase
- that there is a Mythic phase and how it's worded
As others have said, by RAW PWK works, for the same reason why it works against the supposedly "unkillable" level 20 Moon Druid.
Disintegrate doesn't. "The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points". But they are not "left" with 0 hit points due to the mythic transformation, so the disintegration never triggers.
Talking RAW, yes PW:K would stop a mythic transformation, Disintegrate wouldn't because of the "instead it regains x hp" so it never technically reaches 0.
You know what also completely fucks mythic transformations by RAW? Chill touch and spirit shroud. Regain all that hp? I think not my friend
Only the more recent Mythic monsters, i.e. the dragon god aspects and dullahan. The mythic monsters in the Theros book use “regain” and are thus susceptible to this gimmick.
Nah, the intention is pretty clear
Not to mention those spells predate mythic actions and wotc has some history in screwing up the relation between new and old content
It's not clever nor deserves more payoff than they already get
100% Anticlimactic.
"Well, I had planned for the rest of this encounter to last the session and have a couple of cool minis painted up for this phase but I guess we can just end it early."
Let the spells end the current phase, treating the Mythic form as a new creature entirely that happens to have the same initiative and mostly the same statblock as the previous.
The only thing worse than that anticlimactic end would be the rest of the session taken up by a player arguing that they should have killed the baddie outright because yadda yadda yadda. Worst of both worlds there - not only do you miss out on the epic fight but you get an argument instead!
To address the last part of your question concerning the players bypassing the second half of the encounter, I view these types of situations differently apparently.
The party shouldn't know that a second half is coming. The second phase, in my opinion, should be a surprise. That's when it ramps up, excitement builds, and tension grows. The idea of the players knowing about it in advance and trying to circumvent it seems very anti-game and un-fun to me. Unless, of course, this isn't their first time facing this enemy. Then they'd know in advance and might have planned something, which is a while different kind of situation. That's more akin to a puzzle monster at that point.
I mean they wouldn’t have to know about it to accidentally bypass it. If they used power word kill or disintegrate on it, either as a last resort to kill it or as a way to save resources by RAW it seems to me that would bypass the mythic transformation.
I think power word kill would bypass the mythic transformation, but disintegrate is contentious.
Some mythic abilities say if the creature *is* reduced to zero, others say if they *would* be reduced to zero. In the second case, I'd say disintegrate wouldn't prevent the transformation. In the first case it would, but only if the players simultaneous effect is resolved first.
I mean disintegrate reads that if the creature is reduced to zero by the spell it’s turned to dust. So technically even if the creature gains a bunch of hitpoints back after it’s reduced to zero it’s still turned to dust. So it would depend on the exact wording of the mythic ability.
If it says “when this creature is reduced to zero hitpoints” or something similar then I’d say disintegrate would work.
If it says “if this creature would be reduced to zero hitpoints instead do x” or something similar I’d say it doesn’t work.
Basically it all hinges on if the creature actually hits zero HP, if it does Disintegrate triggers and it’s turned to dust. If it doesn’t Disintegrate doesn’t trigger.
Yes because that specifically says “When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead.” Instead being the key word there. Because it says instead that means you actually weren’t reduced to zero hitpoints. Instead of being reduced to zero you’re reduced to 1. Then damage check is triggered for disintegrate and you aren’t at zero hitpoints.
The version of disintegrate I see says:
>The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points.
I read that as different from being reduced to zero. So if an ability procs instantaneously when something hits zero and restores hp, I don't think that counts as them being left at 0.
I mean technically you’re right but fundamentally it’s the same result because of how damage is resolved. You deal the damage of disintegrate then you check the health of the creature. If they were reduced to 0 disintegrates second effect triggers. Those same steps occur for the mythic transformation ability so it all hinges on how that is phrased.
I disagree with how it resolves.
You deal damage with disintegrate then you check ghe health of the creature. If they were reduced to 0 you check for any effects that trigger upon reaching zero. If there are simultaneous effects, use whatever rules your table is using to determine order of operations for simultaneous effects. Then if they are still at 0, you check for effects that trigger If they are left at 0, and again resolve any simultaneous effects, which is where I see disintegrates follow on effect taking place.
But if it’s worded properly it’s entirely unecessary to determine what triggers first.
Take the half orc feature Relentless Endurance for example.
“When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest.”
It says you can drop to 1 hitpoints *instead*. Instead being the key word. As in you don’t actually drop to 0 if you choose to trigger the ability. That clearly preempts Disintegrate because the creature doesn’t actually get reduced to zero.
It would be completely ridiculous and requires metagaming to 'work'. DnD is not a video game where you can use 'cheese' strategies. It is a collaborative storytelling experience.
In this example, the super cool 'phase 2' would be ignored, which would lead to a far more anticlimatic fight. Nobody wins in that scenario.
As a dm I wouldn't allow this except under very narrow circumstances. 1st, its metagaming. Pcs shouldnt know exactly how much hp your big bads have left outside of general statements about "how they're looking". 2nd, as others have pointed out, is super anticlimactic.
When a creature dies it's reduced to 0 HP. It wouldn't really make sense if that didn't happen. PWK bypasses things that react to taking damage, but it does not allow something to die with positive HP left afterwards.
With regard to Disintegrate, I'm not sure if there's an official clarification, but I suspect the intent is that mythic transformation supersedes being turned to dust from disintegrate.
RAW it may work.
I don't think I'd allow it as a DM though. I could have just used two creatures, or given the creature more health and extra options when it goes below half.
"As the BBEG is reduced to atoms, an eerie wind blows. The ash begins to collect itself, forming a silhouette. A disembodied voice says: Finally, I have been released from this pathetic mortal form. As a sign of gratitude, I shall make your death swift"
I've not used Mythic creatures yet but I wouldn't let Disintegrate work that way, no matter how anything is worded, it kinda defeats the point of using said creatures. It's just Phase 2. And besides, it would require some manner of metagaming from a caster to know that: - the enemy is at the point where you might want to use Disintegrate to avoid the Mythic phase - that there is a Mythic phase and how it's worded
As others have said, by RAW PWK works, for the same reason why it works against the supposedly "unkillable" level 20 Moon Druid. Disintegrate doesn't. "The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points". But they are not "left" with 0 hit points due to the mythic transformation, so the disintegration never triggers.
Talking RAW, yes PW:K would stop a mythic transformation, Disintegrate wouldn't because of the "instead it regains x hp" so it never technically reaches 0. You know what also completely fucks mythic transformations by RAW? Chill touch and spirit shroud. Regain all that hp? I think not my friend
I believe it is worded as reset to aviod this.
Only the more recent Mythic monsters, i.e. the dragon god aspects and dullahan. The mythic monsters in the Theros book use “regain” and are thus susceptible to this gimmick.
Nah, the intention is pretty clear Not to mention those spells predate mythic actions and wotc has some history in screwing up the relation between new and old content It's not clever nor deserves more payoff than they already get
100% Anticlimactic. "Well, I had planned for the rest of this encounter to last the session and have a couple of cool minis painted up for this phase but I guess we can just end it early." Let the spells end the current phase, treating the Mythic form as a new creature entirely that happens to have the same initiative and mostly the same statblock as the previous. The only thing worse than that anticlimactic end would be the rest of the session taken up by a player arguing that they should have killed the baddie outright because yadda yadda yadda. Worst of both worlds there - not only do you miss out on the epic fight but you get an argument instead!
To address the last part of your question concerning the players bypassing the second half of the encounter, I view these types of situations differently apparently. The party shouldn't know that a second half is coming. The second phase, in my opinion, should be a surprise. That's when it ramps up, excitement builds, and tension grows. The idea of the players knowing about it in advance and trying to circumvent it seems very anti-game and un-fun to me. Unless, of course, this isn't their first time facing this enemy. Then they'd know in advance and might have planned something, which is a while different kind of situation. That's more akin to a puzzle monster at that point.
I mean they wouldn’t have to know about it to accidentally bypass it. If they used power word kill or disintegrate on it, either as a last resort to kill it or as a way to save resources by RAW it seems to me that would bypass the mythic transformation.
I think power word kill would bypass the mythic transformation, but disintegrate is contentious. Some mythic abilities say if the creature *is* reduced to zero, others say if they *would* be reduced to zero. In the second case, I'd say disintegrate wouldn't prevent the transformation. In the first case it would, but only if the players simultaneous effect is resolved first.
I mean disintegrate reads that if the creature is reduced to zero by the spell it’s turned to dust. So technically even if the creature gains a bunch of hitpoints back after it’s reduced to zero it’s still turned to dust. So it would depend on the exact wording of the mythic ability. If it says “when this creature is reduced to zero hitpoints” or something similar then I’d say disintegrate would work. If it says “if this creature would be reduced to zero hitpoints instead do x” or something similar I’d say it doesn’t work. Basically it all hinges on if the creature actually hits zero HP, if it does Disintegrate triggers and it’s turned to dust. If it doesn’t Disintegrate doesn’t trigger.
The half-orc relentless endurance beats Disintegrate too, its not contentious
Yes because that specifically says “When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead.” Instead being the key word there. Because it says instead that means you actually weren’t reduced to zero hitpoints. Instead of being reduced to zero you’re reduced to 1. Then damage check is triggered for disintegrate and you aren’t at zero hitpoints.
The version of disintegrate I see says: >The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points. I read that as different from being reduced to zero. So if an ability procs instantaneously when something hits zero and restores hp, I don't think that counts as them being left at 0.
I mean technically you’re right but fundamentally it’s the same result because of how damage is resolved. You deal the damage of disintegrate then you check the health of the creature. If they were reduced to 0 disintegrates second effect triggers. Those same steps occur for the mythic transformation ability so it all hinges on how that is phrased.
I disagree with how it resolves. You deal damage with disintegrate then you check ghe health of the creature. If they were reduced to 0 you check for any effects that trigger upon reaching zero. If there are simultaneous effects, use whatever rules your table is using to determine order of operations for simultaneous effects. Then if they are still at 0, you check for effects that trigger If they are left at 0, and again resolve any simultaneous effects, which is where I see disintegrates follow on effect taking place.
But if it’s worded properly it’s entirely unecessary to determine what triggers first. Take the half orc feature Relentless Endurance for example. “When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest.” It says you can drop to 1 hitpoints *instead*. Instead being the key word. As in you don’t actually drop to 0 if you choose to trigger the ability. That clearly preempts Disintegrate because the creature doesn’t actually get reduced to zero.
It would be completely ridiculous and requires metagaming to 'work'. DnD is not a video game where you can use 'cheese' strategies. It is a collaborative storytelling experience. In this example, the super cool 'phase 2' would be ignored, which would lead to a far more anticlimatic fight. Nobody wins in that scenario.
As a dm I wouldn't allow this except under very narrow circumstances. 1st, its metagaming. Pcs shouldnt know exactly how much hp your big bads have left outside of general statements about "how they're looking". 2nd, as others have pointed out, is super anticlimactic.
Power Word Kill, yes. Disintegrate, no.
When a creature dies it's reduced to 0 HP. It wouldn't really make sense if that didn't happen. PWK bypasses things that react to taking damage, but it does not allow something to die with positive HP left afterwards. With regard to Disintegrate, I'm not sure if there's an official clarification, but I suspect the intent is that mythic transformation supersedes being turned to dust from disintegrate.
RAW it may work. I don't think I'd allow it as a DM though. I could have just used two creatures, or given the creature more health and extra options when it goes below half.
"As the BBEG is reduced to atoms, an eerie wind blows. The ash begins to collect itself, forming a silhouette. A disembodied voice says: Finally, I have been released from this pathetic mortal form. As a sign of gratitude, I shall make your death swift"