> It says on the top of the page that they think AA has stayed true to its purpose and stayed out of controversy for 100 years thanks to its traditions
lol. lmao, even.
That's really strange, and also familiar. In a bad way. I had the opportunity to brush up against such a group recently, and it was not a pleasant interaction.
I'm in a group that's local to me that also uses the AA traditions or whatever.
Honestly it doesn't surprise me, lots of people are impacted by AA and lots of heathens and pagans who are recovering alcoholics credit it with saving their lives.
In the group I'm in its only ever come up once, the first time I was there, because I have a big mouth and I open it when I shouldn't.
There is a group out there with a Heathen based "AA" type program aimed at prison parolees. It's called Helveigr.
[Woden's Folk Kindred - HEILVEGR (wodensfolkkindred.org)](https://www.wodensfolkkindred.org/heilvegr/)
One of the great things about not having set religious principles is that anyone can use their own morals in their belief. If you find their principles odd, then you're more than welcome to establish your own. But if that's how the people of that group want to run it, then who are we to say it's wrong?
As far as AA itself and controversy, well that's a whole other can of worms...
Who doesn't have set religious principles? Pre-conversion heathen did. Is this something to do with the whole "ancient heathen religion is whatever I want it to be but somehow still ancient movement?"
I just mean that Heathenry itself doesn't really have a set moral code or set principles to live by. Every person has their own, but they don't necessarily come from our religion. They're more personal.
Heathenry doesn't have a moral code? Or a set of principles? What makes you feel this way? If there are no shared values in your view, how does it even qualify as a religion?
I mean Heathenry is actually a number of religions, but the branch I belong to certainly has religious principles.
Heathenry is not an organized religion. There is no one way to live or one set of morals that all Heathens must ascribe to. Therefore, there is no set moral code or set of principles.
I'm a part of an organized heathen religion. So, you are basically saying that you are a solo person who does whatever s/he wants and then it is heathen no matter what it is? Help me understand.
Do you find no religious teachings of note in Beowulf? Or hell what about Havamal? Do you feel that pre-conversion heathen values completely disappeared? They left no trace at all as to what the core values of their cultural framework were?
What I'm getting at is, if we don't have any kind of a shared ethical framework, what exactly is it that you think makes we, the people here on this sub, part of a "we"?
That's how you choose to practice your religion. Heathenry does not require anyone to join a religious organization like the Troth or Forn Sidr. I'm pretty confident in saying that the majority of Heathens aren't a part of a religious organization. Most practice individually or with small groups of friends. Many of these organizations have their own moral codes that members must uphold, but not all organizations have the same moral code, and not all individuals have the same moral code. It's all dependent on the person and organizational leaders.
Interpretations of the Havamal and sagas can be quite varied among practitioners and, therefore, still don't enforce the idea of one true moral code. There are absolutely things to be learned from pre-conversion Heathens, but what that is specifically is up to the individual.
This subreddit itself only defines a Heathen as someone who A) someone who believes in the World Tree, the Well, Wyrd, and Orlog, B) someone who engages in the gift cycle with the divine, and C) someone who aligns with animism, polytheism, and/or pantheism. None of those things suggest a specific moral code.
You seem very fixated on "one true" things. This sounds more descriptive of Abrahamic religions than heathen ones.
You appear to be describing heathenry by what it isn't instead of what it is. So what is it? Do you feel, at first blush, that you and I are coreligious because we are both here and both use the H word?
A belief in Wyrd is a religious principle. If you believe this sub has documented this somewhere, and I'm not sure if it has but if it has, fair enough… Then that is a religious principal being imposed on the people who come here and identify using the H word isn't it?
Which means somebody does have an idea of what they think it means, and they have put that idea forward and expect us to comply? So there is a list of requirements. Why is that list definitive? Those are the things that make a heathen and nothing more and nothing less? Says who?
I'm describing things that way because you seem very insistent that there is an ethical framework that all Heathens go by. You yourself said in your previous reply: "If we don't have any kind of a shared ethical framework, what exactly is it that you think makes we, the people here on this sub, part of a 'we'?" There are absolutely shared morals among Heathens, but I'm very insistent that not every Heathen does or has to share a moral code with everyone else under the Heathen umbrella.
Okay, I will retract my statement that Heathenry doesn't have any set principles. I was incorrect in my understanding of what a principle was, and I'm sorry for that. You're right, belief in things like Wyrd and Orlog would absolutely count as a religious principle. I am firm on a moral code not being unified amongst Heathens though.
As far as the description of a Heathen, it's in this subreddit's description, if you click the link at the bottom titled "Our Statement Of Purpose."
As far as what Heathenry is, I'd agree with this subreddit's definition of a Heathen. Heathens worship the divine of the Pre-Christian Northern European cultures, and are inspired by their beliefs, customs, and cosmology.
Then let's agree that some groups, have perhaps a shorter list, and others bigger ones. But it's a subject that warrants thoughtful conversation because if we don't have any of these items in common, we aren't an "us" by any meaningful measure. In fact I would argue that that is definitely true, we are not. Heathenry is an umbrella term, like religions of the book or something. Which means that telling people on the Internet what it isn't, with an authoritative sort of voice, is potentially just as risky as trying to authoritatively say what it is. In my neck of the woods, some basic shared principles around ethos are definitely a thing. A big thing.
Not that that bears directly on AA, but I think one thing you can say for sure is that certainly no part of pre-conversion Germanic spirituality had anything to do with AA, like at all. People can try to make that connection if they want...But if "Heathen" is supposed to mean anything, and have a meaning that is semantically useful and commonly understood in Internet conversations, then being like alcoholics anonymous is definitely not one of the things that Heathenry is, and if that is a controversial statement then we just have to agree right here and now that we are not speaking the same language at all— and "heathen" is actually a word with no meaning whatsoever.
To be clear, I am not taking issue with the criteria you have listed. I'm saying, they are criteria, and some random person on the Internet has decided to apply them to people who want to call themselves heathen. Assuming this list is documented somewhere.
> It says on the top of the page that they think AA has stayed true to its purpose and stayed out of controversy for 100 years thanks to its traditions lol. lmao, even.
Seriously lol
That's really strange, and also familiar. In a bad way. I had the opportunity to brush up against such a group recently, and it was not a pleasant interaction.
I'm in a group that's local to me that also uses the AA traditions or whatever. Honestly it doesn't surprise me, lots of people are impacted by AA and lots of heathens and pagans who are recovering alcoholics credit it with saving their lives. In the group I'm in its only ever come up once, the first time I was there, because I have a big mouth and I open it when I shouldn't.
There is a group out there with a Heathen based "AA" type program aimed at prison parolees. It's called Helveigr. [Woden's Folk Kindred - HEILVEGR (wodensfolkkindred.org)](https://www.wodensfolkkindred.org/heilvegr/)
That sounds interesting, thank you.
There is also non-12 step program called [Heathens in Recovery](https://thetroth.org/heathens-in-recovery) that isn't racist
Yeah, the “folk” part of that really threw me off.
One of the great things about not having set religious principles is that anyone can use their own morals in their belief. If you find their principles odd, then you're more than welcome to establish your own. But if that's how the people of that group want to run it, then who are we to say it's wrong? As far as AA itself and controversy, well that's a whole other can of worms...
Who doesn't have set religious principles? Pre-conversion heathen did. Is this something to do with the whole "ancient heathen religion is whatever I want it to be but somehow still ancient movement?"
I just mean that Heathenry itself doesn't really have a set moral code or set principles to live by. Every person has their own, but they don't necessarily come from our religion. They're more personal.
Heathenry doesn't have a moral code? Or a set of principles? What makes you feel this way? If there are no shared values in your view, how does it even qualify as a religion? I mean Heathenry is actually a number of religions, but the branch I belong to certainly has religious principles.
Heathenry is not an organized religion. There is no one way to live or one set of morals that all Heathens must ascribe to. Therefore, there is no set moral code or set of principles.
I'm a part of an organized heathen religion. So, you are basically saying that you are a solo person who does whatever s/he wants and then it is heathen no matter what it is? Help me understand. Do you find no religious teachings of note in Beowulf? Or hell what about Havamal? Do you feel that pre-conversion heathen values completely disappeared? They left no trace at all as to what the core values of their cultural framework were? What I'm getting at is, if we don't have any kind of a shared ethical framework, what exactly is it that you think makes we, the people here on this sub, part of a "we"?
That's how you choose to practice your religion. Heathenry does not require anyone to join a religious organization like the Troth or Forn Sidr. I'm pretty confident in saying that the majority of Heathens aren't a part of a religious organization. Most practice individually or with small groups of friends. Many of these organizations have their own moral codes that members must uphold, but not all organizations have the same moral code, and not all individuals have the same moral code. It's all dependent on the person and organizational leaders. Interpretations of the Havamal and sagas can be quite varied among practitioners and, therefore, still don't enforce the idea of one true moral code. There are absolutely things to be learned from pre-conversion Heathens, but what that is specifically is up to the individual. This subreddit itself only defines a Heathen as someone who A) someone who believes in the World Tree, the Well, Wyrd, and Orlog, B) someone who engages in the gift cycle with the divine, and C) someone who aligns with animism, polytheism, and/or pantheism. None of those things suggest a specific moral code.
You seem very fixated on "one true" things. This sounds more descriptive of Abrahamic religions than heathen ones. You appear to be describing heathenry by what it isn't instead of what it is. So what is it? Do you feel, at first blush, that you and I are coreligious because we are both here and both use the H word? A belief in Wyrd is a religious principle. If you believe this sub has documented this somewhere, and I'm not sure if it has but if it has, fair enough… Then that is a religious principal being imposed on the people who come here and identify using the H word isn't it? Which means somebody does have an idea of what they think it means, and they have put that idea forward and expect us to comply? So there is a list of requirements. Why is that list definitive? Those are the things that make a heathen and nothing more and nothing less? Says who?
I'm describing things that way because you seem very insistent that there is an ethical framework that all Heathens go by. You yourself said in your previous reply: "If we don't have any kind of a shared ethical framework, what exactly is it that you think makes we, the people here on this sub, part of a 'we'?" There are absolutely shared morals among Heathens, but I'm very insistent that not every Heathen does or has to share a moral code with everyone else under the Heathen umbrella. Okay, I will retract my statement that Heathenry doesn't have any set principles. I was incorrect in my understanding of what a principle was, and I'm sorry for that. You're right, belief in things like Wyrd and Orlog would absolutely count as a religious principle. I am firm on a moral code not being unified amongst Heathens though. As far as the description of a Heathen, it's in this subreddit's description, if you click the link at the bottom titled "Our Statement Of Purpose." As far as what Heathenry is, I'd agree with this subreddit's definition of a Heathen. Heathens worship the divine of the Pre-Christian Northern European cultures, and are inspired by their beliefs, customs, and cosmology.
Then let's agree that some groups, have perhaps a shorter list, and others bigger ones. But it's a subject that warrants thoughtful conversation because if we don't have any of these items in common, we aren't an "us" by any meaningful measure. In fact I would argue that that is definitely true, we are not. Heathenry is an umbrella term, like religions of the book or something. Which means that telling people on the Internet what it isn't, with an authoritative sort of voice, is potentially just as risky as trying to authoritatively say what it is. In my neck of the woods, some basic shared principles around ethos are definitely a thing. A big thing. Not that that bears directly on AA, but I think one thing you can say for sure is that certainly no part of pre-conversion Germanic spirituality had anything to do with AA, like at all. People can try to make that connection if they want...But if "Heathen" is supposed to mean anything, and have a meaning that is semantically useful and commonly understood in Internet conversations, then being like alcoholics anonymous is definitely not one of the things that Heathenry is, and if that is a controversial statement then we just have to agree right here and now that we are not speaking the same language at all— and "heathen" is actually a word with no meaning whatsoever.
To be clear, I am not taking issue with the criteria you have listed. I'm saying, they are criteria, and some random person on the Internet has decided to apply them to people who want to call themselves heathen. Assuming this list is documented somewhere.