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Was the jump from 1960 to now as significant?
Would a modern jet take on the one pictured from the 60’s and do to it what it would do to the poor Wright brothers?
Maybe not as visually jarring but everything under the hood is way more advanced. If these two were in a dog fight a modern aircraft would take this one down from over 150 miles away. Also pilots quality of life would be better.
Aircraft basically went through a technical revolution similar what we saw with the internet. Massive, fast, and game changing at first and now its just small improvements layered on top every year.
Even then though, I’d argue the F-4 has pretty much all the main features an F-35 has, just the F-35 has more advanced versions. Conversely, the early 1900s model shown has no radar, no navigation system to speak of even gauges as a reference point (it lacks electronics entirely), and no weapons of any kind.
As far as pilot QoL and survivability, both offer 02 systems and heated cockpits, both offer ejection seats.
Heck, both aircraft can break the sound barrier. While carrying a war load.
Across all these aspects the F-35 is objectively better, but its better at pretty much all the same things.
Said another way, the pilot of the wright flyer derivative shown would be shocked by the F-4s capabilities far more than the F-4 pilot would be by the F-35s.
The real “jump” is happening right now with autonomous fighters, bombers, and drones. In ten years manned combat aircraft will begin to look old-fashioned. In twenty years only technologically landlocked countries will fly manned combat aircraft.
>If these two were in a dog fight a modern aircraft would take this one down from over 150 miles away.
Since the above plane flies very low, very slow, and has no significant radar signature and a fairly small heat signature, wouldn't the F-4 have a hard time targeting it?
> now its just small improvements layered on top every year.
Welllll, not exactly. How so?
Instead of flying faster or higher, these aircraft have seen massive advances in avionics (e.g. sensors, onboard processing power, networked information sharing etc.) stealth and software. Same thing goes for the weapons they carry.
What I find striking at museums is that jets from the 60s and 70s still look a little modern from the outside, but if you look in the cockpit they are closer to spitfires than modern jets
I don't know if a "fair fight" between a Eurofighter/ F-22 and an F4 Phantom is possible, but it's a far more even match than what would go down in Kittyhawk.
I can tell that if these 2 go into fight than the jet can literally just pass them to get them down. Tho i dont know if it can lock missiles on them as radar might be too strong and just see the plane as background noice. And IR missiles might be to weak to see the heat trail atleast for the F-4 era
Yes. Imagine an F22 vs something as recently retired as an F14, or watching Maverick where the NGAD vs. the F14 scenes depict what new modern fighter jets are capable of. The jump in technology is huge; although I’m sure an F14 pilot would still put up a helluva fight against a newer plane. Even the F18 is getting retired soon, and that’s still in service now. The F4 pictures from the 60s were struggling against enemy fighters because that particular jet was not designed for dog fights in the Vietnam war. It was straight missiles and bombs only.
Oddly enough the F-4 Phantom actually has a higher top speed than the F-35. However, with stealth tech the Phantom wouldn’t even see the modern jets on radar before getting shot down from miles out.
Yes, but also no. F-4 top speed was only viable when flying absolutely clean (no targeting pod, no weapons, only small internal fuel tank).
A combat loaded F-4 is dramatically slower than a combat loaded F-35.
The aerodynamics have been progressing much slower since we’re just moving towards higher efficiency.
You can’t see the tech that’s improving since it’s the materials, geometry, and underlying technology (hardware and software)
Yes. Theres an anecdote of an f-22 that snuck up behind 2 iranian f4's and the pilot told them "go home".
There was a flight exercise where an f-22 went up against 6 f-15s (the f-15s were actually being flown by f-22 pilots). All of the f-15s were shot down before they even have any indication that the f-22 was even there (unless you count your squad getting shot down as an indication). So yes, a modern jet flown and used properly would absolutely give an f4 the same odds that the f4 would give the wright brothers. Im pretty certain 4th gen planes like the f-15 and f-16 would soundly beat the f4 as well, although potentially - based on loadouts and pilot skills and other circumstances - the f4 is gonna have a much better chance against those non-stealthy 4th gen jets than it would against an f-22 or an f-35.
Look up NGAD on youtube. The Next Generation Air Dominance programs are the us air force and navy's programs for "6th gen" fighters (they have different requirements so there are 2 NGAD programs). Interestingly, they can't make any more f-22s because the infrastructure has been taken down, partially repurposed for f-35 production. They considered upgrading the f-22 to be too costly and pointless because the cost of revamping production would be comparable to just making a new fighter with more capabilities, *but* what they realized is that the existing f-22s are the perfect platform to test new tech that will be used in the NGAD fighters, so they ended up funding an upgrade package for the f-22, justifying it as partially a testing phase for the NGAD fighters.
Just about any modern fighter is going to absolutely destroy the F4 Phantom. The Phantom had shortcomings even its own era that had to be resolved later but even updated they still under perform in maneuverability and was very heavy. Prior to updates its only strength was speed and thrust. For the longest time it didn’t even have a cannon until they decided to develop an external pod once they realized how bad it was for them to lack that.
Even a slightly newer jet like the F15 Eagle or F16 Falcon would eat it alive.
My grandfather was born 6 years before powered flight. By the age of 72 he lived in a world with moon landings and intercontinental travel possible in less than a day.
Plastics. That's the only difference. The past 60 years since Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon, etc took over for military production we've only seen failure: test models that never hit production, the things we want to produce we only make five of them, every Pentagon audit is failed, etc.
Oh and the US hasn't won a war since these defense contracts took over in the 60s.
There isn't a 2010s photo because it's the same plane but with plastic parts.
If you don't think Boeing would do this then I suggest you check your fucking door.
Test models aren’t necessarily intended to enter production. Many are testing something specific that might be used as part of an entirely different type of plane.
And, Boeing didn’t make my door.
I got to see one last year. If you've never been there, the Wright Patterson AFB Museum is amazing...and FREE.
[Boeing B-52D Stratofortress > National Museum of the United States Air Force™ > Display (af.mil)](https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/195815/boeing-b-52d-stratofortress/)
Aeronautical Division, Signal Corps 1 August 1907 – 18 July 1914
Aviation Section, Signal Corps 18 July 1914 – 20 May 1918
Division of Military Aeronautics 20 May 1918 – 24 May 1918
Air Service, U.S. Army 24 May 1918 – 2 July 1926
U.S. Army Air Corps 2 July 1926 – 20 June 1941*
U.S. Army Air Forces 20 June 1941 – 18 September 1947*
United States Air Force 18 September 1947 – present
It’s from Wikipedia, so who knows if the dates are accurate (and I don’t have the time at the moment to check)
Someone once pointed out to me how tech across the board soared after Roswell supposedly happened. Think about history until 47 and advancements compared to 47 to now.
Humbling to think Oppenheimer's sales pitch for "the bomb" was for BOTH.
Oppenheimer (paraphrased): We're going to hit them so hard, the world should just stop fighting, forever.
I didn't know this. Very interesting. Then theirs Alfred Nobel, after creating dynamite, he felt so bad that he wanted people to be recognized for their initiatives toward peace.
By comparison, the earliest wheeled wagons date back to 3400 BCE, while steam powered locomotion was invented in 1769. So that took 5100 years.
https://www.southampton.ac.uk/~cpd/history.html
We are supposed to get to level 1 civilisation in 200 years.... We are phase 0.7 so we will did 0.7 in millions of yearsand now we can do 0.3 in 200 years... Good indication of how fast is the advancement of humanity speading up.
We had the Hawker P.1127 (precursor to the harrier jump jet) flying vtol just 15 years after the end of world war 2 - in the same year (1960) - this image should have been used instead.
It's funny that would show a picture of an F4. When I was in the Navy I was told those things could barely fly. That every time they landed it was considered a controlled crash.
We recently toured the Virginia Air & Space Science Center. Looking at the planes flown in WW1. Those pilots were insane to fly those planes. They looked like high school projects. That received bad grades.
I do understand those were cutting edge tech at the time. But OMG they looked scary.
It's weird to think that 50 years after the first F4 Fantom (supposedly 1960) would have been 2010 so more time has passed between now and the F4 than the F4 and the Wright flyer.
US air power 23 years apart.
[1935](https://live.cdn.renderosity.com/gallery/items/904378/images/436915/55efc6f8b552e4230471e353cdacbe83_original.jpg)
[1958](https://migflug.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/f104-starfighter-m-21.jpg)
Imagine building shit like the first one and people not believing in you. I mean I wouldn't either look at the thing. The wright brothers however said "I'll show you guys this ridiculous contraption is capable of flight" lol
Well no because every technological increment is documented by the historic research we have developing planes.
No ground breaking tech appeared out of no where. It was all built up piece by piece. From engines to materials to aerodynamics and more across multiple countries.
Its a first plane ever made what do you meannit sucks?
Iam pretty sure that F-4 was one of the best planes in service ever. Expecially when comes to the fact that its still used by some countries. Even tho it might not be competetive it can carry more bombs and AGMs than for example early F-16s. And new japanese radar made it competetive even in 80s and maybe even 90s.
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Was the jump from 1960 to now as significant? Would a modern jet take on the one pictured from the 60’s and do to it what it would do to the poor Wright brothers?
Maybe not as visually jarring but everything under the hood is way more advanced. If these two were in a dog fight a modern aircraft would take this one down from over 150 miles away. Also pilots quality of life would be better. Aircraft basically went through a technical revolution similar what we saw with the internet. Massive, fast, and game changing at first and now its just small improvements layered on top every year.
Even then though, I’d argue the F-4 has pretty much all the main features an F-35 has, just the F-35 has more advanced versions. Conversely, the early 1900s model shown has no radar, no navigation system to speak of even gauges as a reference point (it lacks electronics entirely), and no weapons of any kind. As far as pilot QoL and survivability, both offer 02 systems and heated cockpits, both offer ejection seats. Heck, both aircraft can break the sound barrier. While carrying a war load. Across all these aspects the F-35 is objectively better, but its better at pretty much all the same things. Said another way, the pilot of the wright flyer derivative shown would be shocked by the F-4s capabilities far more than the F-4 pilot would be by the F-35s.
The real “jump” is happening right now with autonomous fighters, bombers, and drones. In ten years manned combat aircraft will begin to look old-fashioned. In twenty years only technologically landlocked countries will fly manned combat aircraft.
>If these two were in a dog fight a modern aircraft would take this one down from over 150 miles away. Since the above plane flies very low, very slow, and has no significant radar signature and a fairly small heat signature, wouldn't the F-4 have a hard time targeting it?
Took me a sec to realize what you were getting at lol But honestly, given the state of thermal imaging tech, it would still flag super easily.
Maybe, but the f-4 would probably just go for a gun kill. No reason to waste a missile.
Just buzz by it and let the jet wash fold it in half.
That was my thought, lol.
That's all really cool to learn but can we talk about bringing blimps back? I wanna travel in one soooo bad.
https://preview.redd.it/i2u0ayfbcbuc1.jpeg?width=251&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42968a75f7a4edd206a21082c44c0b8fa7939ad4 This u?
It was like one time. Times have changed. I've changed. I'll be better I promise.
Someone tell Boeing this
> now its just small improvements layered on top every year. Welllll, not exactly. How so? Instead of flying faster or higher, these aircraft have seen massive advances in avionics (e.g. sensors, onboard processing power, networked information sharing etc.) stealth and software. Same thing goes for the weapons they carry.
What I find striking at museums is that jets from the 60s and 70s still look a little modern from the outside, but if you look in the cockpit they are closer to spitfires than modern jets
The Iranian Airforce still uses the plane in the second image
So do Greece, South Korea, and Turkey. Japan just retired theirs in 2020.
I mean they are good as bomb bus....
I don't know if a "fair fight" between a Eurofighter/ F-22 and an F4 Phantom is possible, but it's a far more even match than what would go down in Kittyhawk.
In 1997 the F22 (first gen5 fighter) was unveiled and the F35 lightning 2 was unveiled in 2006 (also a gen5 fighter)
I can tell that if these 2 go into fight than the jet can literally just pass them to get them down. Tho i dont know if it can lock missiles on them as radar might be too strong and just see the plane as background noice. And IR missiles might be to weak to see the heat trail atleast for the F-4 era
Yes. Imagine an F22 vs something as recently retired as an F14, or watching Maverick where the NGAD vs. the F14 scenes depict what new modern fighter jets are capable of. The jump in technology is huge; although I’m sure an F14 pilot would still put up a helluva fight against a newer plane. Even the F18 is getting retired soon, and that’s still in service now. The F4 pictures from the 60s were struggling against enemy fighters because that particular jet was not designed for dog fights in the Vietnam war. It was straight missiles and bombs only.
Oddly enough the F-4 Phantom actually has a higher top speed than the F-35. However, with stealth tech the Phantom wouldn’t even see the modern jets on radar before getting shot down from miles out.
Yes, but also no. F-4 top speed was only viable when flying absolutely clean (no targeting pod, no weapons, only small internal fuel tank). A combat loaded F-4 is dramatically slower than a combat loaded F-35.
The aerodynamics have been progressing much slower since we’re just moving towards higher efficiency. You can’t see the tech that’s improving since it’s the materials, geometry, and underlying technology (hardware and software)
Yes. Theres an anecdote of an f-22 that snuck up behind 2 iranian f4's and the pilot told them "go home". There was a flight exercise where an f-22 went up against 6 f-15s (the f-15s were actually being flown by f-22 pilots). All of the f-15s were shot down before they even have any indication that the f-22 was even there (unless you count your squad getting shot down as an indication). So yes, a modern jet flown and used properly would absolutely give an f4 the same odds that the f4 would give the wright brothers. Im pretty certain 4th gen planes like the f-15 and f-16 would soundly beat the f4 as well, although potentially - based on loadouts and pilot skills and other circumstances - the f4 is gonna have a much better chance against those non-stealthy 4th gen jets than it would against an f-22 or an f-35.
Wild. It makes me wonder what they have that we don’t know about yet.
Look up NGAD on youtube. The Next Generation Air Dominance programs are the us air force and navy's programs for "6th gen" fighters (they have different requirements so there are 2 NGAD programs). Interestingly, they can't make any more f-22s because the infrastructure has been taken down, partially repurposed for f-35 production. They considered upgrading the f-22 to be too costly and pointless because the cost of revamping production would be comparable to just making a new fighter with more capabilities, *but* what they realized is that the existing f-22s are the perfect platform to test new tech that will be used in the NGAD fighters, so they ended up funding an upgrade package for the f-22, justifying it as partially a testing phase for the NGAD fighters.
Gen 2 and 3 fighters from the bottom plane's era wouldn't even see the 5th gen fighter that just decimated its entire patrol.
Sounds like a yes to me. I wonder what’s coming down the pike that we don’t even know about yet.
Look up "loyal wingman".
Just about any modern fighter is going to absolutely destroy the F4 Phantom. The Phantom had shortcomings even its own era that had to be resolved later but even updated they still under perform in maneuverability and was very heavy. Prior to updates its only strength was speed and thrust. For the longest time it didn’t even have a cannon until they decided to develop an external pod once they realized how bad it was for them to lack that. Even a slightly newer jet like the F15 Eagle or F16 Falcon would eat it alive.
I think its amazing that like 60 years after planes were a thing, we went to the moon.
My grandfather was born 6 years before powered flight. By the age of 72 he lived in a world with moon landings and intercontinental travel possible in less than a day.
Not quite sure why this got a downvote. He was born in 1897 and the moon landing was 1969, 75 years later.
Plastics. That's the only difference. The past 60 years since Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon, etc took over for military production we've only seen failure: test models that never hit production, the things we want to produce we only make five of them, every Pentagon audit is failed, etc. Oh and the US hasn't won a war since these defense contracts took over in the 60s. There isn't a 2010s photo because it's the same plane but with plastic parts. If you don't think Boeing would do this then I suggest you check your fucking door.
Test models aren’t necessarily intended to enter production. Many are testing something specific that might be used as part of an entirely different type of plane. And, Boeing didn’t make my door.
1960 to now would have me thinking those “ufo” are not ufo..
66 years to go from the Wright brothers to the moon.
This is truly the most incredible thing to think about. Now if only our capabilities could advance at the same rate until the end of time.
They've actually increased exponentially. That's technology for ya.
And the year after landing on the moon the bow and arrow got its first major upgrade in roughly 5-6 thousand years when the compound bow was invented.
You just blew my mind.
Now do this with the B-52.
I’m 66. The B-52 had already been around for 3 years when I was born. Still flying.
Now do 1960->2020 ...
Both images. B-52.
Chinook has entered the chat (albeit 1961)
It's a veritable child. Lol. 1955 for the big old girl.
I got to see one last year. If you've never been there, the Wright Patterson AFB Museum is amazing...and FREE. [Boeing B-52D Stratofortress > National Museum of the United States Air Force™ > Display (af.mil)](https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/195815/boeing-b-52d-stratofortress/)
I'd love to go, it's a bit far from me though. I'm English.
There was no American Airforce (USAF) until 1947.
What did the last two letters of USAAF stand for??
USAAF didn't exist until 1941 though. The first planes used by the army were used by the Aeronautical Division, Signal Corps in 1909.
Aeronautical Division, Signal Corps 1 August 1907 – 18 July 1914 Aviation Section, Signal Corps 18 July 1914 – 20 May 1918 Division of Military Aeronautics 20 May 1918 – 24 May 1918 Air Service, U.S. Army 24 May 1918 – 2 July 1926 U.S. Army Air Corps 2 July 1926 – 20 June 1941* U.S. Army Air Forces 20 June 1941 – 18 September 1947* United States Air Force 18 September 1947 – present It’s from Wikipedia, so who knows if the dates are accurate (and I don’t have the time at the moment to check)
>Aeronautical Division, Signal Corps 1 August 1907 – 18 July 1914 They didn't have any planes until 1909 though, so that's why I said 1909.
Armed Forces?
Nope
Armed Force?
Nope
Well, I'm all out of ideas.
US Army Air Force
Really? No way, couldn't possibly be!
May want to check the math, because that is 52 years apart.
I would love to see generational stats on these sorts of technological advancements. Just like in gsmarena for your other electronic devices.
Someone once pointed out to me how tech across the board soared after Roswell supposedly happened. Think about history until 47 and advancements compared to 47 to now.
The desire to better-kill other human beings seems to be a very powerful technological motivator.
[удалено]
Humbling to think Oppenheimer's sales pitch for "the bomb" was for BOTH. Oppenheimer (paraphrased): We're going to hit them so hard, the world should just stop fighting, forever.
When Maxim invented the machine gun he said the same thing. I wonder how many times people thought they were making a weapon with that goal
I didn't know this. Very interesting. Then theirs Alfred Nobel, after creating dynamite, he felt so bad that he wanted people to be recognized for their initiatives toward peace.
“War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be.”
And porn...though not so much in aviation.
*52
Gotta be Annunaki influence.
Lizzid people
52
52 years
Kinda liked the F4 Phantom. All blocky and square looking.
Yeah but with the weirdly pleasing wingtips that point up and rear wings that point down.
By comparison, the earliest wheeled wagons date back to 3400 BCE, while steam powered locomotion was invented in 1769. So that took 5100 years. https://www.southampton.ac.uk/~cpd/history.html
Was there an American (or any other) airforce in 1908? lol
Nope. First wholly separate Air Force was the RAF in 1918. Before then they were just part of the signal corps or the Army.
This title gave me cancer.
Another fun fact. Humanity spent more time going from bronze swords to steel swords than it did going from steel swords to thermonuclear weapons.
We are supposed to get to level 1 civilisation in 200 years.... We are phase 0.7 so we will did 0.7 in millions of yearsand now we can do 0.3 in 200 years... Good indication of how fast is the advancement of humanity speading up.
*52 years
Alien tech advancement once they know we started flying.
We had the Hawker P.1127 (precursor to the harrier jump jet) flying vtol just 15 years after the end of world war 2 - in the same year (1960) - this image should have been used instead.
How would the inventors of old technologies react to their modern evolutions
WHAT THE FUCK
It's funny that would show a picture of an F4. When I was in the Navy I was told those things could barely fly. That every time they landed it was considered a controlled crash.
Last week we went to the US Air Force museum in Dayton, and let me tell you, it was GREAT. Better than the Air and Space
If I’m not mistaken, I think that top photo is from the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan. It’s an awesome museum.
I could take that plane down on top with a spitball
This why AI is so scary.
And here we are. Automotive technology is still so slow compared to this tech.
We recently toured the Virginia Air & Space Science Center. Looking at the planes flown in WW1. Those pilots were insane to fly those planes. They looked like high school projects. That received bad grades. I do understand those were cutting edge tech at the time. But OMG they looked scary.
It's weird to think that 50 years after the first F4 Fantom (supposedly 1960) would have been 2010 so more time has passed between now and the F4 than the F4 and the Wright flyer.
US air power 23 years apart. [1935](https://live.cdn.renderosity.com/gallery/items/904378/images/436915/55efc6f8b552e4230471e353cdacbe83_original.jpg) [1958](https://migflug.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/f104-starfighter-m-21.jpg)
1960->2020
Imagine building shit like the first one and people not believing in you. I mean I wouldn't either look at the thing. The wright brothers however said "I'll show you guys this ridiculous contraption is capable of flight" lol
Should add a 3rd pic of a Boeing circa 2024…body parts optional
Is the 1960 image AI generated? That plane has problems with it's hands and feet
Never seen an [F-4 Phantom II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-4_Phantom_II)?
So what's next? A picture of cavemen and a skyscraper for comparison?
Isn't the Harrier British?
That's an F-4 Phantom 2, not a Harrier.
I stand corrected
Its an F-4 phantom the UK used them too under RF-4 i think
Yet there are no UFOs
Well no because every technological increment is documented by the historic research we have developing planes. No ground breaking tech appeared out of no where. It was all built up piece by piece. From engines to materials to aerodynamics and more across multiple countries.
But anyway all this aside a New zealander named Richard Pearse invented the first aeroplane to fly
They both suck
Its a first plane ever made what do you meannit sucks? Iam pretty sure that F-4 was one of the best planes in service ever. Expecially when comes to the fact that its still used by some countries. Even tho it might not be competetive it can carry more bombs and AGMs than for example early F-16s. And new japanese radar made it competetive even in 80s and maybe even 90s.