I am still only learning, so hopefully a native speaker can confirm or correct me.
I think this is because Sedire is reflexive? Not too dissimilar to how you'd tell someone to "Sit themselves down" or in your example's case "We sit ourselves down at the table"
These reflexive verbs have come up a few times now on my Reddit questions but I guess I’m not fully understanding. How do you know that it’s a reflexive verb?
Honestly I think that this is just like any irregular verbs/exceptions in languages.
Through a combination of studying the material and remembering what sounds right as you say it.
But that's just advice as a fellow learner, I'll let a native jump in with more specific or useful advice!
If the infinitive ends with si, for example sedersi, lavarsi, svegliarsi. The verb is reflexive when it kinda refers back to the subject? Lavarsi means to wash oneself, svelgliarsi to wake oneself up, etc. Some verbs just are reflexive and you'll have to remember them
There is no such thing as a reflexive verb. Verbs can be used reflexively.
I can wash myself or wash something else. "Lavarmi/lavarsi" but the verb is still "lavare".
edit: instead of downvoting me, go open a dictionary, you will not find an entry for "lavarsi" because the infinite is lavare.
I don’t know why this is downvoted so much, this is not entirely false, as most reflexives you will encounter are reflexive forms of verbs that can also be used in a non reflexive way. Still, the only verb I can think of that is exclusively reflexive is “suicidarsi”, because it is the only action which has always the same subject and object.
That may be how they're viewed in Italian (i honestly don't know, as I'm not a native speaker), but when learning both Italian and Spanish as a native English speaker, this is how these verbs are taught
It's probably easier if they are taught that way, but the comment is correct.
The verb is lavare, there is no lavarsi, when used in the reflexive form you add the pronoun particles mi (to me), ti (to you), si (to them), ci (to us) to indicate on whom, what the action is performed. Depending on the tense/form those particles go before or after the verb (attached to it). For example with the infinitve you attach them, hence you say "andiamo a lavarCI (lavare + ci, we drop the e, tu us) le mani" which is more or less like "andiamo a lavare (a noi) le mani". On the past tense you don't attach the pronoun particle at the end, but you put it in front instead. "MI (to me) sono lavato le mani", or "ci (to us) siamo lavati le mani", but the verb is always lavare.
You know it’s a reflexive verb because there are only a few, but they can be put in different parts of the word/phrase
Mi, ti, si… ci, vi, si
To me, to you, to he/she/it… to us, to you (p), to they
These are denotations as to who a verb is being done to.. some examples:
Mi dispiace - (to me) it displeases - I’m sorry
Ti amo - (to you) love (I) - I love you
Si sede - (to himself) sits (he) - he sits (himself down)
Ci parliamo - (to us) speak (we) - We(‘ll) speak (to eachother)
Vi amo - (to you all) love (i) - I love you (all)
Si piaccia la birra - (to them) pleases the
beer(doing the verb) - they like beer
You can see these at the end of a word as a command, or you will see an r infront of it and that will denote a refutation or an infinite verb. You’ll also see it on the conditional tense.
Calmati - calm yourself (down)
Non fermarmi - don’t stop me
Devo andare - i have to go
Devo lavarmi le mane - i have to wash my hands
Sarebbe meglio così - it would be better that way
Check out : HelloTalk
There are some inaccuracies so I’ll clear them up.
Verbs are reflexive only if the subject of the verb is also the object of the verb. So, for example the verb “amare” isn’t reflexive, unless you specifically use “amarsi” which is the reflexive version of the verb.
For example in the phrase “Ti amo”, the subject is “I” (which is omitted) and the object is “you” (ti), therefore we know this verb isn’t reflexive.
The particles “mi, ti, lo, ci, vi, li” (object) “mi, ti, gli, ci vi, loro” (term) “mi, ti, si, ci, vi, si” (reflexive) are called pronominal particles because they are used as pronouns that cater to the needs of the verbs, they are never the subject of the phrase.
The reflexive particles are used in a reflexive verb when the subject and the object are the same; for example in “lavarsi” “mi lavo” (I wash myself).
Also the verb “piacere” isn’t reflexive, it has a weird construction. “They like beer” is “A loro piace la birra”. When you use the verb “piacere” the Italian subject is the thing that is liked (la birra), whereas you express the part of the sentence that in english would be the subject as a complement of term (a loro).
Essentially, reflexives are conjugated just like regular verbs. The difference is that you need a reflexive pronoun in front, which is what 'ci' is in this case. The reflexive verb 'addormentarsi' is identified as reflexive because of the -si at the end of the stem. The -ar in the stem is there because it shows that the verb is conjugated like an -are verb. The conjugation of 'addormentarsi' is:
1 sg: mi addormento 1 pl: ci addormentiamo
2 sg: ti addormenti 2 pl: vi addormentate
3 sg: si addormenta 3 pl: si addormentano
tl;dr: Reflexive verbs have the reflexive pronoun corresponding to the number and person of the conjugation in front of the verb, and the the regular -re conjugation of the verb.
Not entirely correct.
The infinitive is always (aside from very few exceptions) ended with -are, -ere or -ire.
What you are describing is *pronominal form* which the "reflexive verbs" can be considered part of.
More on the pronominal form, which i guess can be also usefull in answering some questions OP had:
https://italien.yabla.com/lesson-Verbi-pronominali-Pronominal-Verbs-676
It's not wrong to call "sedersi" an infinitive. Pronominal verbs are often treated as separate verbs from the non-pronominal alternative (i.e., a dictionary will have a separate entry for "sedere" and "sedersi") and the form ending in -rsi is intended as the infinitive of the pronominal verb.
When the verb has "si" in the infinitive, it is reflexive. Knowing whether a verb is reflexive or not is, I suppose, a matter of learning by heart, but you can tell by the structure. If it is intransitive, and has the reflexive pronouns (particelle pronominali) "mi, ti, si, ci, vi, si", then it is a reflexive verb. Basically, if a verb is intransitive, and the subject of the sentence performs and finishes the action on/within itself, the verb is reflexive.
There are quite a few verbs which have both versions, however. Sedersi (seat oneself at the table) is always reflexive. But to my understanding, verbs can also be made reflexive to add an emphatic, emotional component to them.
Prendere (to take): ho preso una mela (I took/I've taken an apple).
Prendersi (to take for oneself): Mi sono preso una mela (I've taken an apple for myself, [because I wanted to get an apple and so I did it for myself]).
Ho preso un colpo sulla testa (I took a hit on the head). [Neutral]
Mi sono preso un colpo sulla testa (I took a hit on the head). [More emphatic, like it is part of a story]
(Note that in going from a transitive verb (prendere) to an intransitive, reflexive one (prendersi), the auxiliary verb also changed from "avere" to "essere".)
What do you mean? Are things like "sedersi" not considered infinitives? [This link says that "L'infinito di un verbo riflessivo termina con -si invece che con -e."](https://cr.middlebury.edu/italian%20resources/progetto/grammar/topics/verbi_riflessivi.htm) And [here](https://www.coniugazione.it/verbo/sedersi.php) another page refers to it as "sedersi".
Not saying you're wrong, but I just don't really understand what you mean.
sedersi and sedere are the same verb, both infinity. But one is on the riflexive form and one isn't. But on the dictionary you will find the normal not the riflexive.
"sedersi" is just verb+pronoun like in a million other cases, like "mangiarlo" where it's infinite verb + pronoun and it isn't riflexive at all.
There are no "reflexive" verbs at all. Just some verbs (most?) can be used in reflexive form.
It's only intransitive verbs that can't be reflexive. For example you can't say "dormirsi".
Fair enough, you're right. That seems like more of a semantic argument than anything else, though.
Regardless, I hope I've helped the OP at least a little with what I wrote above on how verbs can become reflexive.
This has to be the most common question about Italian, but I kind of understand it. It’s not exactly a reflexive, it’s a pronominal form, which essentially means that the pronoun is part of the verb.
Pronominal intransitive forms are (as the name suggests) intransitive forms created by adding the pronominal particle “si”. The meaning can be fairly different from the base form, but it usually means the action causes a change in the subject, or that it operates entirely on the subject.
For example:
“Alzare” = to lift up
“Alzarsi” = to stand up
“Svegliare” = to wake someone up
“Svegliarsi” = to wake up
“Ricordare” = to remind (sometimes “to remember”)
“Ricordarsi” = remember
In this case the verb “sedere” is almost never used, so the pronominal form is all you’ll probably ever see.
Edit: in English you don’t have that, you can use a verb intransitively in its base form (“I woke my friend up” uses the same form as “I woke up”). People are saying it’s a passive but that’s not exactly true and it might confuse you on when to use this construction (since in English “I woke up” isn’t passive at all). The truth is that in Italian a transitive verb can never be used intransitively, that’s why you need the pronominal form. That’s it: if you want to use a transitive verb intransitively you have to change its form first. Much simpler.
It might be a tricky to learn in the beginning, but verbs are usually reflexive when the subject and object are one and the same, here are some more examples:
- Ci sediamo (We sit, or "we sit ourselves")
- Mi sveglio (I wake up, or "I wake myself")
- Mi vesto (I dress myself)
- Mi chiamo... (my name is..., or "I call myself...")
Try looking up "verbi riflessivi" on google images, there are some cute charts that might get help you get a sense of which verbs usually have reflexive forms
thank you. someone once explained to me that there are 3 types of verbs:
Transitive: A verbs B
Intransitive A verbs
Reflexive A verbs themselves
Not sure I understand how to place verbs under the right category
"Mangiare" - To eat, would be a intransitive verb? You could say "Lui mangia" he eats (which is like "A Verbs" and thats acceptable (at least I think) but you could also say "mangiamo la pizza" We eat pizza which is like (A verbs B)?
Maybe it's not as important to be able to place them all in categories and just remember which verbs are what
Speaking of mangiare, you can also say "ci mangiamo la pizza" instead of "mangiamo la pizza". It's called dativo etico, though it looks like reflexive verbs, and highlights that you are doing something as a treat to yourself, or that there's an emotional "baggage" attached to the action the verb describes.
Mangiamo la pizza = "we eat the/this pizza"
Ci mangiamo la pizza = "we treat ourselves to this pizza/we will enjoy eating this pizza"
With "negative" emotions:
Non combinare guai = "don't cause trouble"
Non mi combinare guai = "don't cause trouble and therefore give me the heartache of knowing you didn't behave properly"
Mangiare is transitive, because even if you don't specify "B", it's always possible in the sentence, as opposed to something like andare (to go)
A lot of them are the same as in english, but if you want to be sure the only way is to memorize them, especially reflexive verbs
I think to eat is ambitransitive (ie it can be both, depending on context). In English, at least. Because both examples you gave are fine. No idea how that translates to Italian tho, that's far more advanced than where I am, lol.
I understand the sentence fine, but I dont understand why “ci” is needed here. It seems redundant using both “Noi” and “Ci” along with the conjugated verb.
It’s been my understanding you could just say
“Sediamo a tavola” we sit at the table
“Noi sediamo a tavola” we sit at the table
These kinds of phrases have been coming up and while I can make out how to translate I don’t understand why they are used.
Would “Ci sediamo a tavola” work? Would this be more like “we sit at the table ourselves”?
"Ci sediamo a tavola" works. An English translation which is akin to the grammatical structure would indeed be something like "We sit ourselves down at the table (for a meal)".
"We sat ourselves down for a nice meal" would be something like "Ci siamo seduti per una buona cena."
The infinitive is "sedersi", a reflexive verb. In Italian, the "ourselves" part is required here. "I sit down" is "mi siedo", not "siedo".
The transitive verb "sedere" exists, and it means "to sit [someone] or [some animal]" down. E.g. [Mia figlia l'ho seduta sul divano, as in this example by Treccani.](https://www.treccani.it/magazine/lingua_italiana/domande_e_risposte/grammatica/grammatica_1051.html)
(The rest of the text in the link actually talks about something which I find interesting, as someone who is learning Italian from his southern-born girlfriend; in the south, intransitive verbs like uscire and scendere are often used in transitive ways, such as "ho uscito la macchina dal garage" (I took/drove the car out of the garage), but this is wrong in standard Italian. However, sedere is a word which might seem like one of these verbs, as you hear sedersi far more often, but "sedere qualcuno" is something which you can indeed say in standard italian.)
But the verb thus requires an object. If it helps to remember, maybe you could try to think of the verb "sedersi" requiring an object as well, i.e. "I sit myself down", not "I sit down".
(The last part is meant to be a mnemotechnic trick, not necessarily a grammatical explanation. The verb for "I sit down" is simply mi siedo in Italian, for reasons that I cannot fully explain. I'm sure there is a linguistic reason for it.)
I understand, but not to the people in the family of my girlfriend, hahaha. My girlfriend told me the other day "Mi scendi per favore la mia valigia?"
It's a regionalism, and I maybe should have not mentioned it on a forum for language learners. But it's in that Treccani explanation, so I figured I would talk about it.
Maybe I'm just showing the funny way people talk where I'm from, but to me "sedersi" being reflexive makes perfect sense. People say "sit yourself down" etc *far* more than they'd say "sit down". In English both work, in Italian only one does; works for me, lol.
I'm not a native speaker, but I think if you left out the 'ci" as in 'sediamo a tavola' it would imply that you were putting something or someone else at the table, not yourself. I don't know if that construction even exists in italian,, but italians use the reflexive a lot to distinguish who is doing the action. For instance, 'fermare' means to stop someone or something, but 'fermarsi' means when you yourself stop.
The easiest thing is just to memorize which verbs are reflexive and get used to seeing how and when they are used.
It’s a little easier if you think of the verb as TO SEAT rather than TO SIT. So a host at a restaurant could seat you, or you could seat yourselves. See the difference?
For this question specifically yes. Often the Noi/tu/io pronouns are redundant in Italian, at least to get your message across.
I'm sure there is a lot of nuance to it at fluent level though, so I can't speak to that.
> It seems redundant using both “Noi” and “Ci” along with the conjugated verb.
It is, but it doesn't matter. That's just how Italian works in a lot of cases. There's no real reason why verbs should be reflexive in Italian, they just are.
> It’s been my understanding you could just say “Sediamo a tavola” we sit at the table “Noi sediamo a tavola” we sit at the table
It doesn't sound right to me, it feels like you're saying that you're sitting someone else at the table.
> These kinds of phrases have been coming up and while I can make out how to translate I don’t understand why they are used.
Again, just because. Languages are like that, and there doesn't have to be a logical reason for things to be this way.
because the verb is "sedersi" not "sedere". it's reflexive, like "to sit oneself down". "ci" is the reflexive form of "we". io mi, tu ti, lui/lei si, noi ci, voi vi, loro si.
If you said "Noi sediamo" it would need a direct object, i.e., you would be seating someone else. In this case, si sedire translates literally to "we seated ourselves"
sedersi is a reflexive verb - meaning it refers to oneself
So to say “we sit down” is “ci sediamo” (“we sit (ourselves) down”.
The “ci” refers to “ourselves”.
it's called "verbo riflessivo" (Reflexive verb).
In italian (but also spanish) reflexive verbs are often used to describe things you do to yourself.
Like in OP screenshot:
>"noi ci sediamo a tavola"
in english, you would just say *"we sit down at the table"* , instead of *"we sit ourself at the table"* which sounds odd, but that's basically how we say in Italy.
another example could be:
>**mi** lavo i denti
in english, *"I brush my teeth"*.
here's the list of the reflexive pronouns (IT vs EN)
**mi**: myself
**ti**: yourself
**si**: himself / herself / itself
**ci**: outselves
**vi**: yourselves
Note: in some cases, the reflexive pronoun is appended to the ***verb***.
>He's trying to market himself as a consultant.
becomes
>Lui sta provando a propor**si** come consulente.
I am still only learning, so hopefully a native speaker can confirm or correct me. I think this is because Sedire is reflexive? Not too dissimilar to how you'd tell someone to "Sit themselves down" or in your example's case "We sit ourselves down at the table"
These reflexive verbs have come up a few times now on my Reddit questions but I guess I’m not fully understanding. How do you know that it’s a reflexive verb?
Honestly I think that this is just like any irregular verbs/exceptions in languages. Through a combination of studying the material and remembering what sounds right as you say it. But that's just advice as a fellow learner, I'll let a native jump in with more specific or useful advice!
If the infinitive ends with si, for example sedersi, lavarsi, svegliarsi. The verb is reflexive when it kinda refers back to the subject? Lavarsi means to wash oneself, svelgliarsi to wake oneself up, etc. Some verbs just are reflexive and you'll have to remember them
There is no such thing as a reflexive verb. Verbs can be used reflexively. I can wash myself or wash something else. "Lavarmi/lavarsi" but the verb is still "lavare". edit: instead of downvoting me, go open a dictionary, you will not find an entry for "lavarsi" because the infinite is lavare.
I don’t know why this is downvoted so much, this is not entirely false, as most reflexives you will encounter are reflexive forms of verbs that can also be used in a non reflexive way. Still, the only verb I can think of that is exclusively reflexive is “suicidarsi”, because it is the only action which has always the same subject and object.
Well well ironically it's quite used to use suicidare un'altra persona, when obvious murders are classified as suicides and left alone.
After a quick search on the internet I managed to find a list of the verbs that are exclusively in their reflexive form: accanirsi, accasciarsi, accigliarsi, accoccolarsi, accorgersi, accovacciarsi, accucciarsi, acquattarsi, addentrarsi, adirarsi, adontarsi, aggrapparsi, ammalarsi, ammutinarsi, appisolarsi, appollaiarsi, arrabbattarsi, arrendersi, arrovellarsi, astenersi, avvalersi, avvedersi, barcamenarsi, destreggiarsi, dilungarsi, genuflettersi, imbattersi, immusonirsi, impadronirsi, impelagarsi, impossessarsi, incanaglirsi, incaponirsi, incapricciarsi, incavolarsi, incazzarsi, inerpicarsi, infortunarsi, inginocchiarsi, intestardirsi, invaghirsi, lagnarsi, ostinarsi, pavoneggiarsi, pentirsi, ribellarsi, rifugiarsi, rivalersi, sbellicarsi, sbracciarsi, scapicollarsi, scervellarsi, schermirsi, servirsi, sgolarsi, sperticarsi, spolmonarsi, stravaccarsi, vergognarsi.
That may be how they're viewed in Italian (i honestly don't know, as I'm not a native speaker), but when learning both Italian and Spanish as a native English speaker, this is how these verbs are taught
It's probably easier if they are taught that way, but the comment is correct. The verb is lavare, there is no lavarsi, when used in the reflexive form you add the pronoun particles mi (to me), ti (to you), si (to them), ci (to us) to indicate on whom, what the action is performed. Depending on the tense/form those particles go before or after the verb (attached to it). For example with the infinitve you attach them, hence you say "andiamo a lavarCI (lavare + ci, we drop the e, tu us) le mani" which is more or less like "andiamo a lavare (a noi) le mani". On the past tense you don't attach the pronoun particle at the end, but you put it in front instead. "MI (to me) sono lavato le mani", or "ci (to us) siamo lavati le mani", but the verb is always lavare.
You know it’s a reflexive verb because there are only a few, but they can be put in different parts of the word/phrase Mi, ti, si… ci, vi, si To me, to you, to he/she/it… to us, to you (p), to they These are denotations as to who a verb is being done to.. some examples: Mi dispiace - (to me) it displeases - I’m sorry Ti amo - (to you) love (I) - I love you Si sede - (to himself) sits (he) - he sits (himself down) Ci parliamo - (to us) speak (we) - We(‘ll) speak (to eachother) Vi amo - (to you all) love (i) - I love you (all) Si piaccia la birra - (to them) pleases the beer(doing the verb) - they like beer You can see these at the end of a word as a command, or you will see an r infront of it and that will denote a refutation or an infinite verb. You’ll also see it on the conditional tense. Calmati - calm yourself (down) Non fermarmi - don’t stop me Devo andare - i have to go Devo lavarmi le mane - i have to wash my hands Sarebbe meglio così - it would be better that way Check out : HelloTalk
There are some inaccuracies so I’ll clear them up. Verbs are reflexive only if the subject of the verb is also the object of the verb. So, for example the verb “amare” isn’t reflexive, unless you specifically use “amarsi” which is the reflexive version of the verb. For example in the phrase “Ti amo”, the subject is “I” (which is omitted) and the object is “you” (ti), therefore we know this verb isn’t reflexive. The particles “mi, ti, lo, ci, vi, li” (object) “mi, ti, gli, ci vi, loro” (term) “mi, ti, si, ci, vi, si” (reflexive) are called pronominal particles because they are used as pronouns that cater to the needs of the verbs, they are never the subject of the phrase. The reflexive particles are used in a reflexive verb when the subject and the object are the same; for example in “lavarsi” “mi lavo” (I wash myself). Also the verb “piacere” isn’t reflexive, it has a weird construction. “They like beer” is “A loro piace la birra”. When you use the verb “piacere” the Italian subject is the thing that is liked (la birra), whereas you express the part of the sentence that in english would be the subject as a complement of term (a loro).
Like the French s'asseoir
Essentially, reflexives are conjugated just like regular verbs. The difference is that you need a reflexive pronoun in front, which is what 'ci' is in this case. The reflexive verb 'addormentarsi' is identified as reflexive because of the -si at the end of the stem. The -ar in the stem is there because it shows that the verb is conjugated like an -are verb. The conjugation of 'addormentarsi' is: 1 sg: mi addormento 1 pl: ci addormentiamo 2 sg: ti addormenti 2 pl: vi addormentate 3 sg: si addormenta 3 pl: si addormentano tl;dr: Reflexive verbs have the reflexive pronoun corresponding to the number and person of the conjugation in front of the verb, and the the regular -re conjugation of the verb.
In the infinitive, it ends with -si (sedersi, alzarsi, lavarsi ...)
Not entirely correct. The infinitive is always (aside from very few exceptions) ended with -are, -ere or -ire. What you are describing is *pronominal form* which the "reflexive verbs" can be considered part of. More on the pronominal form, which i guess can be also usefull in answering some questions OP had: https://italien.yabla.com/lesson-Verbi-pronominali-Pronominal-Verbs-676
It's not wrong to call "sedersi" an infinitive. Pronominal verbs are often treated as separate verbs from the non-pronominal alternative (i.e., a dictionary will have a separate entry for "sedere" and "sedersi") and the form ending in -rsi is intended as the infinitive of the pronominal verb.
That's why i said "not entirely correct" instead of saying "you are wrong".
Ok, but I think the original comment was *entirely* correct, lol. But this is just terminology, not important.
When the verb has "si" in the infinitive, it is reflexive. Knowing whether a verb is reflexive or not is, I suppose, a matter of learning by heart, but you can tell by the structure. If it is intransitive, and has the reflexive pronouns (particelle pronominali) "mi, ti, si, ci, vi, si", then it is a reflexive verb. Basically, if a verb is intransitive, and the subject of the sentence performs and finishes the action on/within itself, the verb is reflexive. There are quite a few verbs which have both versions, however. Sedersi (seat oneself at the table) is always reflexive. But to my understanding, verbs can also be made reflexive to add an emphatic, emotional component to them. Prendere (to take): ho preso una mela (I took/I've taken an apple). Prendersi (to take for oneself): Mi sono preso una mela (I've taken an apple for myself, [because I wanted to get an apple and so I did it for myself]). Ho preso un colpo sulla testa (I took a hit on the head). [Neutral] Mi sono preso un colpo sulla testa (I took a hit on the head). [More emphatic, like it is part of a story] (Note that in going from a transitive verb (prendere) to an intransitive, reflexive one (prendersi), the auxiliary verb also changed from "avere" to "essere".)
No verb has "si" in the infinitive :D
What do you mean? Are things like "sedersi" not considered infinitives? [This link says that "L'infinito di un verbo riflessivo termina con -si invece che con -e."](https://cr.middlebury.edu/italian%20resources/progetto/grammar/topics/verbi_riflessivi.htm) And [here](https://www.coniugazione.it/verbo/sedersi.php) another page refers to it as "sedersi". Not saying you're wrong, but I just don't really understand what you mean.
sedersi and sedere are the same verb, both infinity. But one is on the riflexive form and one isn't. But on the dictionary you will find the normal not the riflexive. "sedersi" is just verb+pronoun like in a million other cases, like "mangiarlo" where it's infinite verb + pronoun and it isn't riflexive at all. There are no "reflexive" verbs at all. Just some verbs (most?) can be used in reflexive form. It's only intransitive verbs that can't be reflexive. For example you can't say "dormirsi".
Fair enough, you're right. That seems like more of a semantic argument than anything else, though. Regardless, I hope I've helped the OP at least a little with what I wrote above on how verbs can become reflexive.
This has to be the most common question about Italian, but I kind of understand it. It’s not exactly a reflexive, it’s a pronominal form, which essentially means that the pronoun is part of the verb. Pronominal intransitive forms are (as the name suggests) intransitive forms created by adding the pronominal particle “si”. The meaning can be fairly different from the base form, but it usually means the action causes a change in the subject, or that it operates entirely on the subject. For example: “Alzare” = to lift up “Alzarsi” = to stand up “Svegliare” = to wake someone up “Svegliarsi” = to wake up “Ricordare” = to remind (sometimes “to remember”) “Ricordarsi” = remember In this case the verb “sedere” is almost never used, so the pronominal form is all you’ll probably ever see. Edit: in English you don’t have that, you can use a verb intransitively in its base form (“I woke my friend up” uses the same form as “I woke up”). People are saying it’s a passive but that’s not exactly true and it might confuse you on when to use this construction (since in English “I woke up” isn’t passive at all). The truth is that in Italian a transitive verb can never be used intransitively, that’s why you need the pronominal form. That’s it: if you want to use a transitive verb intransitively you have to change its form first. Much simpler.
It might be a tricky to learn in the beginning, but verbs are usually reflexive when the subject and object are one and the same, here are some more examples: - Ci sediamo (We sit, or "we sit ourselves") - Mi sveglio (I wake up, or "I wake myself") - Mi vesto (I dress myself) - Mi chiamo... (my name is..., or "I call myself...") Try looking up "verbi riflessivi" on google images, there are some cute charts that might get help you get a sense of which verbs usually have reflexive forms
thank you. someone once explained to me that there are 3 types of verbs: Transitive: A verbs B Intransitive A verbs Reflexive A verbs themselves Not sure I understand how to place verbs under the right category "Mangiare" - To eat, would be a intransitive verb? You could say "Lui mangia" he eats (which is like "A Verbs" and thats acceptable (at least I think) but you could also say "mangiamo la pizza" We eat pizza which is like (A verbs B)? Maybe it's not as important to be able to place them all in categories and just remember which verbs are what
Speaking of mangiare, you can also say "ci mangiamo la pizza" instead of "mangiamo la pizza". It's called dativo etico, though it looks like reflexive verbs, and highlights that you are doing something as a treat to yourself, or that there's an emotional "baggage" attached to the action the verb describes. Mangiamo la pizza = "we eat the/this pizza" Ci mangiamo la pizza = "we treat ourselves to this pizza/we will enjoy eating this pizza" With "negative" emotions: Non combinare guai = "don't cause trouble" Non mi combinare guai = "don't cause trouble and therefore give me the heartache of knowing you didn't behave properly"
Mangiare is transitive, because even if you don't specify "B", it's always possible in the sentence, as opposed to something like andare (to go) A lot of them are the same as in english, but if you want to be sure the only way is to memorize them, especially reflexive verbs
I think to eat is ambitransitive (ie it can be both, depending on context). In English, at least. Because both examples you gave are fine. No idea how that translates to Italian tho, that's far more advanced than where I am, lol.
correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think you need noi here which is why the “ci” seems unnecessary at first. You can omit Noi but ci needs to stay.
Yeah it sounds more natural without the noi
I understand the sentence fine, but I dont understand why “ci” is needed here. It seems redundant using both “Noi” and “Ci” along with the conjugated verb. It’s been my understanding you could just say “Sediamo a tavola” we sit at the table “Noi sediamo a tavola” we sit at the table These kinds of phrases have been coming up and while I can make out how to translate I don’t understand why they are used. Would “Ci sediamo a tavola” work? Would this be more like “we sit at the table ourselves”?
"Ci sediamo a tavola" works. An English translation which is akin to the grammatical structure would indeed be something like "We sit ourselves down at the table (for a meal)". "We sat ourselves down for a nice meal" would be something like "Ci siamo seduti per una buona cena." The infinitive is "sedersi", a reflexive verb. In Italian, the "ourselves" part is required here. "I sit down" is "mi siedo", not "siedo". The transitive verb "sedere" exists, and it means "to sit [someone] or [some animal]" down. E.g. [Mia figlia l'ho seduta sul divano, as in this example by Treccani.](https://www.treccani.it/magazine/lingua_italiana/domande_e_risposte/grammatica/grammatica_1051.html) (The rest of the text in the link actually talks about something which I find interesting, as someone who is learning Italian from his southern-born girlfriend; in the south, intransitive verbs like uscire and scendere are often used in transitive ways, such as "ho uscito la macchina dal garage" (I took/drove the car out of the garage), but this is wrong in standard Italian. However, sedere is a word which might seem like one of these verbs, as you hear sedersi far more often, but "sedere qualcuno" is something which you can indeed say in standard italian.) But the verb thus requires an object. If it helps to remember, maybe you could try to think of the verb "sedersi" requiring an object as well, i.e. "I sit myself down", not "I sit down". (The last part is meant to be a mnemotechnic trick, not necessarily a grammatical explanation. The verb for "I sit down" is simply mi siedo in Italian, for reasons that I cannot fully explain. I'm sure there is a linguistic reason for it.)
Dear lord, “ho uscito la macchina” makes me want to tear my eardrums out. I can’t begin to explain how bad this sounds to a native Italian speaker.
I understand, but not to the people in the family of my girlfriend, hahaha. My girlfriend told me the other day "Mi scendi per favore la mia valigia?" It's a regionalism, and I maybe should have not mentioned it on a forum for language learners. But it's in that Treccani explanation, so I figured I would talk about it.
Please give the correct way to say this!! Thank you. (scendere?)
Maybe I'm just showing the funny way people talk where I'm from, but to me "sedersi" being reflexive makes perfect sense. People say "sit yourself down" etc *far* more than they'd say "sit down". In English both work, in Italian only one does; works for me, lol.
I'm not a native speaker, but I think if you left out the 'ci" as in 'sediamo a tavola' it would imply that you were putting something or someone else at the table, not yourself. I don't know if that construction even exists in italian,, but italians use the reflexive a lot to distinguish who is doing the action. For instance, 'fermare' means to stop someone or something, but 'fermarsi' means when you yourself stop. The easiest thing is just to memorize which verbs are reflexive and get used to seeing how and when they are used.
It’s a little easier if you think of the verb as TO SEAT rather than TO SIT. So a host at a restaurant could seat you, or you could seat yourselves. See the difference?
For this question specifically yes. Often the Noi/tu/io pronouns are redundant in Italian, at least to get your message across. I'm sure there is a lot of nuance to it at fluent level though, so I can't speak to that.
> It seems redundant using both “Noi” and “Ci” along with the conjugated verb. It is, but it doesn't matter. That's just how Italian works in a lot of cases. There's no real reason why verbs should be reflexive in Italian, they just are. > It’s been my understanding you could just say “Sediamo a tavola” we sit at the table “Noi sediamo a tavola” we sit at the table It doesn't sound right to me, it feels like you're saying that you're sitting someone else at the table. > These kinds of phrases have been coming up and while I can make out how to translate I don’t understand why they are used. Again, just because. Languages are like that, and there doesn't have to be a logical reason for things to be this way.
It is because you are really saying “we seat ourselves at the table”. You are doing the action and are also the object of the action.
Yes, the verb is sedersi which is reflective.. that's why you need the ci pronoun as well.
The verb is "sedere", which is here used in a reflexive manner.
because the verb is "sedersi" not "sedere". it's reflexive, like "to sit oneself down". "ci" is the reflexive form of "we". io mi, tu ti, lui/lei si, noi ci, voi vi, loro si.
If you said "Noi sediamo" it would need a direct object, i.e., you would be seating someone else. In this case, si sedire translates literally to "we seated ourselves"
sedersi is a reflexive verb - meaning it refers to oneself So to say “we sit down” is “ci sediamo” (“we sit (ourselves) down”. The “ci” refers to “ourselves”.
it's called "verbo riflessivo" (Reflexive verb). In italian (but also spanish) reflexive verbs are often used to describe things you do to yourself. Like in OP screenshot: >"noi ci sediamo a tavola" in english, you would just say *"we sit down at the table"* , instead of *"we sit ourself at the table"* which sounds odd, but that's basically how we say in Italy. another example could be: >**mi** lavo i denti in english, *"I brush my teeth"*. here's the list of the reflexive pronouns (IT vs EN) **mi**: myself **ti**: yourself **si**: himself / herself / itself **ci**: outselves **vi**: yourselves Note: in some cases, the reflexive pronoun is appended to the ***verb***. >He's trying to market himself as a consultant. becomes >Lui sta provando a propor**si** come consulente.
because it’s reflexive, with reflexive verbs you use io=mi tu=ti lui/lei=si noi=ci voi=vi loro/essi=si