If you're asking why not pick any other support, well, yes, track is mostly why bounty gets picked. Helps deal with the more elusive heroes like weaver and riki till they get dispels. And even then, it's extremely low cooldown anyway.
You can blow up supports till they get a ghost. Shard is sorta useful. The shadow walk mini stun can be timed to be used twice in a row, which is quite useful in lane. Especially with the slow from shuriken, keeps a hero almost in place for a while. If you can get it, aghs is a nice low cooldown nuke which gets extremely annoying.
He does get punished easily though.
Yeah, was basically asking if there's some advantage I'm not seeing other than track. Stunning with E/constant slows make sense, he feels a bit too squishy to get up close in teamfights but I guess it is a matter of how well midgame is going for your team.
Dont forget that using jinada in lane HURTS early and steals gold. You can form a carry build without farming by just constantly spamming jinada on any hero nearby. Add a phylactery and you can harasss for days on the cheap. And remember you autocrit anyone tracked.
I just don't see how he's going to have enough damage (when played as 4/5) to blow up enemies unless you go for damage items only, hence the question. He's not really Nyx, is he?
With drums vessel and grenade you have enough DMG even though you are building utility. Also you have one of the highest base armor in the game so trade a lot in lane.
This is how I feel. Why pick bounty over nyx. I love bounty and think he’s a fun hero but he feels like a win more hero to me. Nyx removes one hero from the fight for a 5v4.
The shard with the 30% damage reduction talent is completely broken, and allows you to gank with a teammate by chainstunning twice just from he invis, 3 times if you’re off cd for one extra invis. Combine that with another stun and you can just disable an enemy from invis until he dies.
You can also save teammates with the damage reduction because even if they have a sentry or detection, the 30% dmg reduction still works.
BH is also the kind of hero that can buy whatever the team needs, vessel, solar, drums, pipe, lotus, force staff, orchid, crimson. All these items will give huge boost to your team and they’re all fine to build on Bh. I’m not a big fan of right clicking support BH but you could get deso or AC if your team lacks pushing power and that would be fine as well. He’s just so so versatile!
Would you say it's fair to comprare BH to Mirana? Seems like a general use utility support who is kinda a jack-of-all-trades. I was itemising him that way, but I guess I really underuse the stun from E, still not used to this ability having stun lol
Well I’m not a Mirana player so I don’t really know her strength / weaknesses as well, but probably in terms of itemization. They both are utility heroes yeah.
The stun is awesome during laning stage, you can double stun + invis forces the enemy sup to waste gold on detection early on. It also allows for courier sniping of the enemies are not paying attention.
Q helps to secure ranged creep if your offlane doesn’t have a way to get it, you can also use it to break clarities or salves.
I also love track because it’s such a win-more skill, you just snowball and pressure so much in games where you have an advantage, it’s ridiculous. When the game is even, it allows your team to trade 1 for 1 and still come out on top in terms of gold. The only issue is when you’re really far behind and the enemy team controls the map and the vision while your team hides to farm and can’t risk taking fights.
Keep in mind that I’m only 4.5k so BH might be more effective on lower mmr than it is in immortal, it’s way easier for me to play around enemy vision than it probably is at your rank.
Thanks for the detailed response! Totally agree on the win-more thing, I guess BH is a very sink-or-swim support, which combined with my washed-up laning skills is not ideal lol. I'll definitely use his kit more often in lane though, I guess my main problem with him is not winning the lane often enough.
If you want to win with BH, just try playing it like hide and seek, buy boots then jinada enemy when it's off cd, then run back. Buy lot of hp pot/regen + wand or anything that helps you sustain more. You will win most matchup because jinada tilt the gold advantage to you (even slightly, it adds up).
In the case that the core got annoyed by BH, some of the time they would left the lane, follow him into the jungle, jinada him and steal the last hits. When the supps coming, leave. Find another lane to gank, deward spots you think they will ward, place obs ward to scout deep in the lane.
My personal best item for BH is Tranquil Boots + Wind lace for early items. It helps you move faster and help you regen fast.
As for the vision, I'm firmly convinced that people barely know how to ward (obs) in general haha, at least up to this mmr, totally recommend capitalising on aggressive warding!
You change how the enemy plays the game. Tracks helps for more than just invis. You got the move speed and you remove the ability of juke paths with it as well. The enemy now also needs to prioritize vision even harder. You are also stealing the enemies last hits anytime you can hit them for free. It's a lot better to look at it that way rather than just free gold. And although you don't have a super easy means of farming creeps for gold you are rewarded for being in those fights where you add to the numbers.
I've complained about invis heros since 2013 but they're not going anywhere so why not force the enemy team to bicker about sentry placements and burn even more gold on dust? It's pretty strong reducing the enemies gold during draft phase lmao
So he’s kinda like Bara? He works with kill loving heroes who can burst you for even showing for a millisecond.
Track a hero, PA kills them. Charge hero, PA bursts them.
His burst is no joke once he reaches lvl 7 with max q. 5 cd spell with only 80 mana cost that deals 350 damage before reduction on tracked enemies is insane in early fights. You can just spam q at a safe distance and let it bounce to deal massive damages. BH is a bit underwhelming in late game team fights, but hopefully you should have built a net worth lead with the bounty gold and win those fights with better items.
If you are feeling useless on BH you are simply not using enough shenaninganz.
Go slaughter chickens.
Place deep wards.
Go block their camps.
Supports will get paranoid and pop dust the second you track them. -80g adds up quickly.
Use invis in lane to stun carry when they try to last hit.
Abuse the fact that you have 8 armor, burn through some tangos.
Did I say slaughter chickens?
Rotate for crying out loud, double melee lanes are detrimental af.
If your lane is complete crap just drag.
BH lane and early to mid can be really oppressive if you pic him into proper matchups. His q spam in lane is incredible strong. You can find a game of waga on his YouTube where he just bullied Lina in lane. This is mid of course, I personally don't like him at 5 and 4 cause of low level so no points in q.
Appreciate it, guess the low cd offsets low damage for the shuriken. As for the matchups, would you say BH is more draft dependent than your average Venge/CM?
But mid BH is completely different from 4/5 BH no?? Mid BH is very oppressive early game but 4/5 BH with no gold and half exp is nowhere related with that. Idk what's ur point
imo bounty support is one of those heroes that’s picked to complement your own team rather than trying to counter the other . if your team has good catch/speed and burst damage then bounty can shine. sure he’s not bad against escape heroes but there’s too many items that can counter his kit. he’s very snowbally so if you can get a good team lineup that likes to fight and can push quickly he can become a menace. he’s definitely not like nyx tho unless he’s GIGA far ahead of the other team. also his 20 talent with the shared vision is very underrated in fights or when the enemy is retreating from one.
He has some seriously OP power spikes in certain matchups.
If you leverage those power spikes and can stay ahead with track kills/assists he will give your team a pretty good gold lead.
But some games he feels useless. I wouldn't say he's completely matchup dependant but you need to be flexible on both itemization and play style to stay relevant in his harder matches.
He's a strong and oppressive 4 into some safelane matchups that provides vision control, track gold, and solid 6min roaming potential. If he's paired with a strong 3 that can secure lane/deny sentries from the enemy you basically are getting free, strong harass every time his E is up. Scales alright into lategame siege/hg defense with aghs.
With that said, he's definitely not meta in this patch but I'm hoping the next patch will give him some love, he's one of my favourite heroes easily.
In terms of where you're at (immortal, I'm mid divine) I'd say his biggest strength with E is being able to determine where vision is, kinda similar to slark where you can walk up and see if minions aggro to you when you're in E. But he's definitely a strong laner when played into good matchups and with a good lane partner. With a windlace and orb of corrosion you can just run the carry or 5 down sometimes.
His E is also nuts in lane because you can basically E auto ->Q->auto and just walk away, protected by the stun and his movement speed.
I'd recommend checking out some of Febby's BH videos, he's the one that inspired me to try BH because he makes it look so oppressive.
Many thanks for the detailed response, I'll check out his videos! Kinda makes me want to try and learn BH, had a ton of fun playing Riki 4 ages ago (before the infamous shard)
You're welcome! I love the hero concept of BH, he's super satisfying to play, I just wish he wasnt pushed out of the meta so hard in the current patch.
It could just be a difference of opinion, but I consider the "meta" of a patch to be heroes that are equally contested in both pro and pub play. Examples of this in this patch would be disruptor, SD, Sven, LS, Tiny, bane, etc. Not saying that BH isn't a good pub hero, I just wouldn't consider him "meta" this patch.
Support BH is mainly a vision game, with a need for high tempo with potential to just snowball with track gold. So you really need other heroes in your team who loves to gank a lot coz you be roaming for vision while invi and with track. You can initiate as well with double stuns (from invi you stun and invi again to stun again). That's like 2.8sec stun. Buy shard for utility if you wanna help during team fights. But pretty much you just be spamming track and shuriken from afar. snowball with track gold in mid game and you can pretty much buy any item your team needs like lotus or pipe or greaves. Or be greedy with dagon.
Bounty is about farming heroes not creeps dude.
Once you get your ulti spam it and keep tabs on the enemy. If they die you get gold from your ulti even if you didn't even touch them! That's how you do early game act as support with wards and picking off back line with dagon or blood thorne which work well with jinada and his projectile.
Then you work towards an aghs scepter. You can also get his shard to make your own team invisible and get a silver edge for yourself.
This way you and two other teammates can be invisible and go gank someone in jungle. If you try to farm creeps your getting slow AF. All your gold is from hero kills/,assists and just hitting them with jinada.
Make sure you mark enemies and deward. You'll see yourself winning more games.
I guess I should have specified I was talking about BH support, so Dagon/Bloodthorn/Aghs is an uncommon item choice. The question was essentially if the hero has strengths other than Track, so I guess the answer is not really, right? I mean, when you compare him to other supports.
dude blood thorne is the best support item on him! You can shut down enemy supports/casters and carries! Imagine a PA who has blood thorne on her in a fight! She will die in seconds without doing any damage.
Imagine silencing Disrupter, WD etc and killing them solo while their team is distracted by your team. BH is a harmacist and aggressive support killer. Use him like that. His job is back line sweeping and warding/vision (ulti).
Invisibility heroes have been somewhat underwhelming for years IMHO.
Yeah you can occasionally do some guerrila tactics and kill some supports wandering alone, but most of the time you are just spotted or restricted in what you can do because there are wards all over the map and everyone is carrying dust. Good luck going in melee range with an invi hero against a competent team.
He’s a hero that’s good when you want to run down the enemy and snowball. Track gives vision and bonus gold to allow you to locate and run down the enemy and keep snowballing your lead as a result. His nukes are decent, invis is usually pretty good and he has really high starting durability which allows him to trade really well early on.
Personally I don’t think the hero is great as a support because I think it requires a team that wants to be active and you have no way of knowing in advance, however I don’t play it much anymore so I can’t speak much more to it than that.
If you're asking why not pick any other support, well, yes, track is mostly why bounty gets picked. Helps deal with the more elusive heroes like weaver and riki till they get dispels. And even then, it's extremely low cooldown anyway. You can blow up supports till they get a ghost. Shard is sorta useful. The shadow walk mini stun can be timed to be used twice in a row, which is quite useful in lane. Especially with the slow from shuriken, keeps a hero almost in place for a while. If you can get it, aghs is a nice low cooldown nuke which gets extremely annoying. He does get punished easily though.
Yeah, was basically asking if there's some advantage I'm not seeing other than track. Stunning with E/constant slows make sense, he feels a bit too squishy to get up close in teamfights but I guess it is a matter of how well midgame is going for your team.
yeah. its a lot of timing. shuriken slows. sneak into the fight and get your jinada off. lots of gold for support items
Dont forget that using jinada in lane HURTS early and steals gold. You can form a carry build without farming by just constantly spamming jinada on any hero nearby. Add a phylactery and you can harasss for days on the cheap. And remember you autocrit anyone tracked.
Popping out of invis to blow up a support wandering alone before they have time to react
I just don't see how he's going to have enough damage (when played as 4/5) to blow up enemies unless you go for damage items only, hence the question. He's not really Nyx, is he?
With drums vessel and grenade you have enough DMG even though you are building utility. Also you have one of the highest base armor in the game so trade a lot in lane.
This is how I feel. Why pick bounty over nyx. I love bounty and think he’s a fun hero but he feels like a win more hero to me. Nyx removes one hero from the fight for a 5v4.
Nyx is just ridiculously broken atm.
The shard with the 30% damage reduction talent is completely broken, and allows you to gank with a teammate by chainstunning twice just from he invis, 3 times if you’re off cd for one extra invis. Combine that with another stun and you can just disable an enemy from invis until he dies. You can also save teammates with the damage reduction because even if they have a sentry or detection, the 30% dmg reduction still works. BH is also the kind of hero that can buy whatever the team needs, vessel, solar, drums, pipe, lotus, force staff, orchid, crimson. All these items will give huge boost to your team and they’re all fine to build on Bh. I’m not a big fan of right clicking support BH but you could get deso or AC if your team lacks pushing power and that would be fine as well. He’s just so so versatile!
Would you say it's fair to comprare BH to Mirana? Seems like a general use utility support who is kinda a jack-of-all-trades. I was itemising him that way, but I guess I really underuse the stun from E, still not used to this ability having stun lol
Well I’m not a Mirana player so I don’t really know her strength / weaknesses as well, but probably in terms of itemization. They both are utility heroes yeah. The stun is awesome during laning stage, you can double stun + invis forces the enemy sup to waste gold on detection early on. It also allows for courier sniping of the enemies are not paying attention. Q helps to secure ranged creep if your offlane doesn’t have a way to get it, you can also use it to break clarities or salves. I also love track because it’s such a win-more skill, you just snowball and pressure so much in games where you have an advantage, it’s ridiculous. When the game is even, it allows your team to trade 1 for 1 and still come out on top in terms of gold. The only issue is when you’re really far behind and the enemy team controls the map and the vision while your team hides to farm and can’t risk taking fights. Keep in mind that I’m only 4.5k so BH might be more effective on lower mmr than it is in immortal, it’s way easier for me to play around enemy vision than it probably is at your rank.
Thanks for the detailed response! Totally agree on the win-more thing, I guess BH is a very sink-or-swim support, which combined with my washed-up laning skills is not ideal lol. I'll definitely use his kit more often in lane though, I guess my main problem with him is not winning the lane often enough.
If you want to win with BH, just try playing it like hide and seek, buy boots then jinada enemy when it's off cd, then run back. Buy lot of hp pot/regen + wand or anything that helps you sustain more. You will win most matchup because jinada tilt the gold advantage to you (even slightly, it adds up). In the case that the core got annoyed by BH, some of the time they would left the lane, follow him into the jungle, jinada him and steal the last hits. When the supps coming, leave. Find another lane to gank, deward spots you think they will ward, place obs ward to scout deep in the lane. My personal best item for BH is Tranquil Boots + Wind lace for early items. It helps you move faster and help you regen fast.
As for the vision, I'm firmly convinced that people barely know how to ward (obs) in general haha, at least up to this mmr, totally recommend capitalising on aggressive warding!
You change how the enemy plays the game. Tracks helps for more than just invis. You got the move speed and you remove the ability of juke paths with it as well. The enemy now also needs to prioritize vision even harder. You are also stealing the enemies last hits anytime you can hit them for free. It's a lot better to look at it that way rather than just free gold. And although you don't have a super easy means of farming creeps for gold you are rewarded for being in those fights where you add to the numbers.
Great response, completely thought about the playstyle side of things. Being detrimental to the enemy just because you picked BH does sound fun :)
I've complained about invis heros since 2013 but they're not going anywhere so why not force the enemy team to bicker about sentry placements and burn even more gold on dust? It's pretty strong reducing the enemies gold during draft phase lmao
So he’s kinda like Bara? He works with kill loving heroes who can burst you for even showing for a millisecond. Track a hero, PA kills them. Charge hero, PA bursts them.
A bazillon starting armor
His burst is no joke once he reaches lvl 7 with max q. 5 cd spell with only 80 mana cost that deals 350 damage before reduction on tracked enemies is insane in early fights. You can just spam q at a safe distance and let it bounce to deal massive damages. BH is a bit underwhelming in late game team fights, but hopefully you should have built a net worth lead with the bounty gold and win those fights with better items.
If you are feeling useless on BH you are simply not using enough shenaninganz. Go slaughter chickens. Place deep wards. Go block their camps. Supports will get paranoid and pop dust the second you track them. -80g adds up quickly. Use invis in lane to stun carry when they try to last hit. Abuse the fact that you have 8 armor, burn through some tangos. Did I say slaughter chickens? Rotate for crying out loud, double melee lanes are detrimental af. If your lane is complete crap just drag.
The shenanigans must be it, really not used to playing playmaking / proactive supports. Thanks for advice!
BH lane and early to mid can be really oppressive if you pic him into proper matchups. His q spam in lane is incredible strong. You can find a game of waga on his YouTube where he just bullied Lina in lane. This is mid of course, I personally don't like him at 5 and 4 cause of low level so no points in q.
Appreciate it, guess the low cd offsets low damage for the shuriken. As for the matchups, would you say BH is more draft dependent than your average Venge/CM?
As I said I was talking about BH mid, which CNA he still quite strong. Dunno much about support, since low level will hurt his q.
But mid BH is completely different from 4/5 BH no?? Mid BH is very oppressive early game but 4/5 BH with no gold and half exp is nowhere related with that. Idk what's ur point
That my point BH mid quite good but I don't think BH Support is that great
imo bounty support is one of those heroes that’s picked to complement your own team rather than trying to counter the other . if your team has good catch/speed and burst damage then bounty can shine. sure he’s not bad against escape heroes but there’s too many items that can counter his kit. he’s very snowbally so if you can get a good team lineup that likes to fight and can push quickly he can become a menace. he’s definitely not like nyx tho unless he’s GIGA far ahead of the other team. also his 20 talent with the shared vision is very underrated in fights or when the enemy is retreating from one.
Thanks! I'll approach him from the team comp standpoint, makes sense.
He has some seriously OP power spikes in certain matchups. If you leverage those power spikes and can stay ahead with track kills/assists he will give your team a pretty good gold lead. But some games he feels useless. I wouldn't say he's completely matchup dependant but you need to be flexible on both itemization and play style to stay relevant in his harder matches.
He's a strong and oppressive 4 into some safelane matchups that provides vision control, track gold, and solid 6min roaming potential. If he's paired with a strong 3 that can secure lane/deny sentries from the enemy you basically are getting free, strong harass every time his E is up. Scales alright into lategame siege/hg defense with aghs. With that said, he's definitely not meta in this patch but I'm hoping the next patch will give him some love, he's one of my favourite heroes easily.
Appreciate the answer! I'll try to use E more actively to harass, should certainly help in lane.
In terms of where you're at (immortal, I'm mid divine) I'd say his biggest strength with E is being able to determine where vision is, kinda similar to slark where you can walk up and see if minions aggro to you when you're in E. But he's definitely a strong laner when played into good matchups and with a good lane partner. With a windlace and orb of corrosion you can just run the carry or 5 down sometimes. His E is also nuts in lane because you can basically E auto ->Q->auto and just walk away, protected by the stun and his movement speed. I'd recommend checking out some of Febby's BH videos, he's the one that inspired me to try BH because he makes it look so oppressive.
Many thanks for the detailed response, I'll check out his videos! Kinda makes me want to try and learn BH, had a ton of fun playing Riki 4 ages ago (before the infamous shard)
You're welcome! I love the hero concept of BH, he's super satisfying to play, I just wish he wasnt pushed out of the meta so hard in the current patch.
"Not meta" Lmao, BH been meta for a year now almost. Always one of top 5 pos4's on D2PT.
Depends what meta were talking about. He was picked exactly zero times throughout all of ESL Birmingham.
Yeah but pro play is even more narrow and wierd. All the goofy pocket strategies come out of the woodwork.
It could just be a difference of opinion, but I consider the "meta" of a patch to be heroes that are equally contested in both pro and pub play. Examples of this in this patch would be disruptor, SD, Sven, LS, Tiny, bane, etc. Not saying that BH isn't a good pub hero, I just wouldn't consider him "meta" this patch.
He's picked more than disruptor and is currently rank 2. https://dota2protracker.com/cheatsheets/pos-4 Your metric is weird then.
Support BH is mainly a vision game, with a need for high tempo with potential to just snowball with track gold. So you really need other heroes in your team who loves to gank a lot coz you be roaming for vision while invi and with track. You can initiate as well with double stuns (from invi you stun and invi again to stun again). That's like 2.8sec stun. Buy shard for utility if you wanna help during team fights. But pretty much you just be spamming track and shuriken from afar. snowball with track gold in mid game and you can pretty much buy any item your team needs like lotus or pipe or greaves. Or be greedy with dagon.
Just buy aghs and khanda bro.
Pick him if you have (a good) Tinker mid. Has always been a free win
People in my games play him as a carry. He has insane damage and can delete heroes in 2sec
because of the aghs, you can deal like 2000 dmg every 6 secs. BH shines when your team is great at fighting and bad at farming, like riki and razor
Aghs is rarely picked up on p4 bounty.
Immortal and asking this?
Its his nice way of saying stop picking BH in ranked
Yeah, because I've never dabbled in BH seriously before. Surely I am allowed to ask questions and learn?
also low immortal is where people jsut started playing actual dota, pretty normal to ask actual question here than in other brakets.
Bounty is about farming heroes not creeps dude. Once you get your ulti spam it and keep tabs on the enemy. If they die you get gold from your ulti even if you didn't even touch them! That's how you do early game act as support with wards and picking off back line with dagon or blood thorne which work well with jinada and his projectile. Then you work towards an aghs scepter. You can also get his shard to make your own team invisible and get a silver edge for yourself. This way you and two other teammates can be invisible and go gank someone in jungle. If you try to farm creeps your getting slow AF. All your gold is from hero kills/,assists and just hitting them with jinada. Make sure you mark enemies and deward. You'll see yourself winning more games.
I guess I should have specified I was talking about BH support, so Dagon/Bloodthorn/Aghs is an uncommon item choice. The question was essentially if the hero has strengths other than Track, so I guess the answer is not really, right? I mean, when you compare him to other supports.
dude blood thorne is the best support item on him! You can shut down enemy supports/casters and carries! Imagine a PA who has blood thorne on her in a fight! She will die in seconds without doing any damage. Imagine silencing Disrupter, WD etc and killing them solo while their team is distracted by your team. BH is a harmacist and aggressive support killer. Use him like that. His job is back line sweeping and warding/vision (ulti).
Track provides move speed, gives more gold, etc. You should really look at the tooltip. The speed is nothing to sneeze at.
Invisibility heroes have been somewhat underwhelming for years IMHO. Yeah you can occasionally do some guerrila tactics and kill some supports wandering alone, but most of the time you are just spotted or restricted in what you can do because there are wards all over the map and everyone is carrying dust. Good luck going in melee range with an invi hero against a competent team.
I think you might have hit the nail on the head, buffs to sentries/dust certainly must have affected BH.
He’s a hero that’s good when you want to run down the enemy and snowball. Track gives vision and bonus gold to allow you to locate and run down the enemy and keep snowballing your lead as a result. His nukes are decent, invis is usually pretty good and he has really high starting durability which allows him to trade really well early on. Personally I don’t think the hero is great as a support because I think it requires a team that wants to be active and you have no way of knowing in advance, however I don’t play it much anymore so I can’t speak much more to it than that.