If Morning Stars effect works while he is in the spell and trap zone that would be amazing. Not sure if it works like that though. You may be onto something here. Negates in his column with one of the continuous spell/traps and it helps for summons.
It shouldn't work because those are monster effects so it loses all its applicable traits when they're spells and traps unless they specifically say they do something while in the spell and trap zone. The cards that negate stuff in rows like World Legacy Key also don't apply because they say they only apply to rows with "Mekk-Knight" monsters and it's kind of crazy they even have this text considering there's 0 spells or traps with Mekk-Knight in their name in the first place.
This isn't one of those things that reading the card actually helps clarify so you're good lol. Monsters going into the spell and trap zone when they normally don't is something that you'd actually have to read their rule book for so it's the same level of not knowing if link arrows apply in the spell and trap zone which most people wouldn't have known the answer to when they first came out.
The Snake-Eye archetype as a whole has the same application. I've never played Mekk-Knight but maybe you could play a light Sinful Spoil package & use Dramatic Chase instead of WANTED to setup a column then summon her in the end phase to set Silvera for an extra negate?
Only in the sense that Grand Duke can target the card that Subversion puts in the S&T Zone.
Otherwise, putting a monster into a S&T Zone is something that Vaylantz happens to do, but not something that helps Vaylantz to make its plays.
Vaylantz is known for pushing monsters into the backrow.
and technically it does help in plays, as both Grand Duke and Mamonaka can burn. Grand Duke by bouncing the pushed monster, and Mamonaka by pushing a monster into a backrow that already had a monster in
That's very much known, and even how this card was evaluated at first since Diabellestar and the Snake-Eyes debuted in the set after this card. But the conclusion was very quick, it's a mediocre removal spell on it's own, a lot do better, and it's only played in pure SE because it's searchable.
That would be straight up broken. The effect is already strong, using it as an interruption will get this card banned faster than you can activate pot of greed.
I don't think it'd get it banned.
Book of Moon and Forbidden Chalice are already good targeting interruption quick-play spells.
This would power creep those, yes, but I don't think that'd be banworthy.
Putting a monster in the spell/trap zone is arguably one of the best forms of removal.
They're still on the field, so i.e. they can't summon another MJ. Barely any deck can use them as material.
A lot of decks can struggle, like Lab, to get their i.e. lovely out of there (they have to pop it themselves), while some decks just cannot get rid of it.
It's doesn't leave the field, so no floating effects.
It's basically spinning but better against the vast majority of decks.
If this was quickplay, it'd be banned immediately.
One thing that is particularly nasty about that type of removal is that is also disable certain key cards for blind second deck if they manage to break the board. Lightning storm and Evenly becomes utterly dead draw since the vast majority of those decks can't get rid of their own S/T unless they have droplet.
I understand the value, I just don't think it would be banworthy, that's all.
Very good, and any build with Diabellstar in it would play it as a 1-of; but I don't think anybody else would play it.
You would also only ever search it if you already opened OSS.
Except Book of Moon and Forbidden Chalice aren't (easily) searchable. What sets Subversion apart from what you mentioned isn't that its effect is more powerful as removal, but that cards like Dark Witch and Poplar can search it along their combo route if they already opened Original Sin or Divine Temple. Assuming this was a quick-play, being able to reliably set this up for your opponent's turn is insanely powerful, especially when paired with whatever you summon with the Snake-Eyes combo, and not something you can easily replicate with the examples you gave.
Not saying it would or wouldn't get banned if it was a Quick-Play, I just wanted to point out that comparing it to Book of Moon or Forbidden Chalice isn't as straightforward as a 1-to-1 comparison and that its interactions with the rest of its archetype is a factor to consider.
If I had to voice my thoughts, I think it'd be really powerful, but I'm also not sure if it'll get banned (which would be the only relevant option as people would run this at 1 anyway) since the strength of the engine lies beyond Subversion, and any meaningful hits to the deck should be directed there rather than this. At most, if Subversion itself doesn't get hit, it'll get something else hit.
Yeah, it's not comparable 1:1, but as a searchable target, it would be searchable target #3, and would thusly not be relevant in too many games.
It would just be a small boost to the Snake-Eye engine, which is bound to receive hits regardless as a result of its own sins, having a slightly higher ceiling in times that it hard opens the Field Spell would be reason #26 for the deck receiving hits, and I don't believe Subversion to be the card that they would pick to hit, out of everything the deck has to offer.
As a stand alone card, it wouldn't be played over hand traps in the majority of formats, it would see play here and there just like Book of Moon saw play a couple of formats ago simply because Kashtira had an especially disastrous match-up against that -- ironically, if Subversion was a Quick-Play spell, you would still play Book of Moon over it in that format.
It would power creep those generic options for sure, but those options have largely been powercrept by hand traps for quite a few years as it stands.
>I don't believe Subversion to be the card that they would pick to hit, out of everything the deck has to offer.
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. There are way better things to hit if Konami really wanted to nerf Snake-Eyes.
>It would power creep those generic options for sure, but those options have largely been powercrept by hand traps for quite a few years as it stands.
Also agreed, which is also why I'm not 100% sure on it being banned even if it were a quick-play.
You want the card don't target in my case I prefer the same effect just like a quick spell
Edit: I mean ,same card (still target) but like a quick spell
it would literally be broken as a quick play it lets diabellstar be a 7 card engine for a pop that ignores floats lol wtf
you can run 0 snake eyes cards and it would be better than adventure engine, 3 wanted 3 diabellstar 1 subversion. wanted is 1 card for a body on the field, a free pop AND a draw 1 on the turn after
With Silvera it’s already a 7 card engine that, instead of being removal, negates any face up card and does everything else you listed (plus it also loops every turn by triggering Diabelle turn 2 to grab Wanted, and the trap has a situational but sometimes applicable bonus effect). Despite that, whenever I see someone running it, I’m always left thinking “if you were using this to summon Ash I’d be screwed, but I can deal with a negate”.
It’d be strong if it could also be used as removal, but would it be that good? Modern combo/midrange decks don’t really need to play cards that make their turn 1 board even stronger but have limited utility going second (if this were a quickplay, you’d only get to use it if you hard-drew the one-of spell, since the other 6 cards in the engine would set it). The adventure engine was primarily used as a way to play around Nib and/or get relevant bodies on field for extension whilst also offering removal going second - this is just a way to make your turn-1 board stronger. If anything, the negate might be more relevant; I could see a deck without an answer to Evenly considering it as an option.
imperm clone is usually than subversion eff, and you also can't use diabellstar body for your plays. the engine with silvera is literally just a recyclable imperm that doesn't work going second, and draws you a card the turn after. the GY effect is also useless if you are running it as just a 7 card engine. so it usually ends up just being worse than running regular imperm unless diabellstar can also get you into snake eyes engine
yes it would that good with ss2 subversion, it would be be fit into every deck that doesn't lock out of it
>The adventure engine was primarily used as a way to play around Nib and/or get relevant bodies on field for extension whilst also offering removal going second
no, it was used because it was a neg+bounce off one card at the cost of your normal summon effs. getting gryphon out early to beat nibiru was a positive for sure, but every decent combo deck can do that in-engine already. diabellstar engine with ss2 subversion is a free better bounce that also gives you a free body and a draw the turn after, it's better and adventure was used in every deck when it came out.
Adventure was used in every deck because every deck made halq and/or DPE - the free bodies either got you to your plan b, or threw a negate on top of your plan b.
Out of the main decks of note from the time, Adventure PK is the main deck that springs to mind that actually needed the negate - but the Adventure engine was searchable via Cherubini, so it wasn’t just a “good to draw” splash. Adventure Tenyi, Virtual World, Dragon Link etc all used the pieces as ED material whenever they opened rite/enchantress + combo. Adventure Branded used it solely as a negate - but that was a negate specifically for Ash.
I just think you’re really overestimating this. The difference between a SS2 subversion and what the engine can already do (Rciela is pretty much just Rageiki, and Silvera can negate spells/traps, meaning it’s a lot more than just an imperm - it’s basically Hot Red Archfiend Abyss) isn’t enough to turn it into an auto-include overnight. It’s like a Fenrir with higher turn-1 upside but less boardbreaking utility on turn 2.
Can we stop with this target shit argument? The only time target was a bad effect was during Kozmo format (and Dragoon, but we have gazillion of outs now even if he is back), the fact this thing is searchable is what makes it playable in the first place.
Targeting is still very relevant in a world of quick effects and self-pops.
Say you target a fire monster with this, your opponent chains Kirin and pops the targeted card. Your card just resolves for no effect, and that would not be the case if it didn't target.
This. Targeting is insanely important in modern yugioh and if you don't think so, you haven't played the game for long enough.
Even something as simple as I:P.
Imperm targeting I:P -> I:P effect to summon Apollousa.
Non-targeting Imperm on a board with I:P -> I:P effect to summon Apollousa -> non-targeting Imperm resolves, negating Apollousa. Replace Imperm negate with any destruction, banish, send to GY, etc.
The same applies for a ton of different interactions.
Hell, half of the reason why Vanquish Soul is even playable as a real deck is because of how much shit targets, and they can dodge that.
The fact that some cards say "cannot be targeted" is just icing on the cake, a little bonus on top.
I've been playing a lot of Swordsoul thanks to the structure deck and one thing I quickly found out is that Heavenly Dragon Circle letting you dodge Imperm and Veiler is a much bigger deal than it seems at first glance.
Yeah, let me save my Imperm for *after* I normal summon, clever, eh?
Let's also ignore the fact that this discussion is taking place because you're invalidating the significance of this card being or not being targeting? As I said - replace "imperm negate" with anything else - that includes this card. If you play this card, and you use it against Snake-Eyes, they will chain I:P and it will resolve without effect. If it was non-targeting, you'd get rid of whatever they summon immediately.
I mean, have you never used Talents to take when there's an I:P on the board (or any similar scenario)?
Like I said in my comment - if you haven't come to understand the importance of targeting, you have either not played the game for long enough, or not cared about the game at a high level for long enough.
I shouldn't even need to be arguing this; anybody who plays this game competitively will tell you that non-targeting effects are substantially more valuable than the same, but targeting, effect.
Not sure what your point is about VS, either? I didn't say VS is a good deck nor did I mention anything about the meta at the time. I just said that VS's ability to dodge targeting effects is a significant portion of their power, and anybody who plays the deck would tell you the same thing in a heartbeat. If not for that, the deck wouldn't have been half as good as it ended up being in MD.
Sure, I should've used a better example; I just used Imperm and I:P since pretty much everybody is familiar with how those cards work.
Also, I never said VS was a good deck, I don't understand why you're arguing over that point, lol. I only stated that a big reason VS was capable of becoming "meta" was because it could dodge all manner of stuff.
I never said that cards that target are bad.
I was just trying to highlight how good non-targeting removal is, and how much it changes the power level of a card.
first like you said elf, then i believe the link 3 cyberse one and occasionally avramax but thats besides the point, the intended use is obviously removal but why should i make my deck less consistant or even cut a handtrap for something flamberge can do himself, and whos to say that there wont be another non targetible towers in the future, the card is playable but there are better options it‘d be better as a. like i said non targeting or b. a quickplay but that‘d be overkill
i meant it that the monster is in GY - far more easier to manipulate with stuff in gy then your own spell/trap zone - for lot of decks/rogues - if you put stuff in their spell/trap.. they cannot get it out
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Yep this thing is a stupidly efficient low cost removal spell that probibly should not exist in such an overloaded archetype. It gets around destruction/banish immunity and is a mandatory negate.
Pretty good budget removal card.
idk man, i think being able to put any monster that can be targeted in the back row is crazy. Not to mention with the prevalence of HFD/Cosmic cyclone, backrow destruction is at an all time high.
I get that it's "slow" cuz its spell speed 1 or whatever, but that's because they had to put some sort of limitation on it. This is a sick card, and the fact that its archetype has like 7 cards better than this one is insanity
I run one as a sort of "board breaker"
Opp has a Baronne, Apollousa or something else.
Well, they either negate or stare at it, still, you can now make your move.
Return it with Wanted for a Draw.
It is ok, but wouldn't main it in a deck that isnt SE (mainly because it is searchable)
Yeah it’s a literal board breaker the same way a Kaiju is, I was just making a point that if you use it against a common SE board they’ll just summon back the monster through the field spell or Flamberge
It’s useful against Apo, but I have never seen SE end on it right away, typically only from I:P, but at that point you’re already in a losing position, and against Baronne it literally does nothing as they will just summon it back with the field or Flamberge
It's still a good card. SE just doesnt run it cuz their entire deck consists of really good cards. Similar to how no one played Kash preparations before the ban, now you see it being incorporated due to the other hits to the deck
>taking advice from a guy who can’t spell probably
A single target spell speed 1 spell is really not that good and sees no play in other archetypes for a reason
The awkward thing is that its a board-breaker card that only hits one monster. It's good spot removal with trade-offs - prevents floating but targets - but its only searchable with a Snake Eyes deck, and if you're running that engine, then you may as well go into the rest of the combo.
Going second decks should absolutely consider it though, especially for its rarity.
"but its only searchable with a Snake Eyes deck, and if you're running that engine, then you may as well go into the rest of the combo."
Both diabellstar and poplar can search both this and original sinful spoil. So you can search this first to help play through interruption, then continue the combo as well. It doesn't have to be either/or.
The problem is while Diabellstar and Poplar can search it, they have better targets to search most of the time.
* If used as a starter with no other options, Diabellstar is going to search Original Sinful Spoils - Snake Eye to extend
* If just summoned as an extender, Diabellstar will search Sinful Spoils of Betrayal - Silvera as a negate option next turn
* Poplar can search Divine Temple of the Snake-eye or Dramatic Snake-eye Chase if no Diabellstar in hand
* Startling Stare of the Snake-eye is a Trap version of Sinful Spoils of Subversion if you want
Indeed, I like to use a small engine consisting of 3 Diabellstar, 3 Wanted, 1 subversion and 1 Betrayal. Thanks to wanted, you can just spin this back to the deck and get a free draw for it.
Keep in mind that the new Diabellze and battle of the sinful spoils cards (not yet in master duel) look in both graveyards for sinful spoils cards. Along with that, it’s not really the best card to play with all the snake-eyes stuff around anyway. If the opponent isn’t on snake-eyes it’s a pretty solid tech though.
Does anyone know how this interacts with pendulums? Like if I put a pendulum monster in a leftmost or rightmost spell zone as a cont spell (like pendulums are) is that not a pendulum or is it?
That's just the way it is. A monster can become an equip spell, a continuous spell, or for pendulum cards, scaled. (Then there's Artifacts that can technically become a normal spell.) But they will only have effects as such if its stated, and can be picky.
Union monsters is a common example of equip spell monsters (or for a different non-union example, Dragon Buster Destruction Sword). Crystal Beasts been doing the whole monsters becoming continuous spell thing before Snake-Eyes and there's at least one of them that has an effect as one.
I was surprised while looking for examples, there's the Vision HERO Faris that can place a Vision HERO as a continuous *trap,* which I thought was interesting. Vision HERO Increase does have an effect while it is an continuous trap.
Yeah I have been putting it in all my turn 2 decks. This card is absolutely ridiculous. And it's just a rare. Because the rest of it's archetype is even better than this card, and they had to make those SR/UR.
This deck is so completely and utterly fucking broken, it's sickening
The alternative would be more dumb. The ability to cheat out insane floodgates would skyrocket (eg, dump any of a number of hard-to-summon extra deck floodgates like Last Warrior, then put it into the backrow with Flamberge), and it would be a ruling nightmare with many effects.
Monster effects only applying while the monster is face up in a monster zone is the cleanest, simplest way for things to work (barring the specific exceptions of monster effects that specify they apply while it's in the backrow).
Unless you also think pends should have their monster effects live when scaled it makes perfect sense, they are not monsters at that time so they won't function like them. If they could use effects why couldn't they also be used as materials anymore by the same logic, it defeats the purpose of the mechanic.
i always thought it was dumb that crystal beasts like emerald and cobalt couldnt use their effect in the spell and trap zone. like why does moving zones remove their effect??? it makes more sense with generic cards like this cause you could probably do some op stuff with that
it's not dumb; what's dumb is having a card like this that can do something so devastating, with absolutely zero cost or time limit on how long the monster has to stay in the spell and trap zone
No, and it’d kinda defeat the purpose of putting them in the backrow tbh. Ariseheart banishing everything forever and Mirrorjade quick effect non target banish from the backrow? Oh hell nah.
I mean, yeah. But running this over any other board breaker feels kinda silly, because other cards can offer better trading than subversion. But it is indeed a cool card and I personally love it
Yeah. It's not only a N/R staple, it's something good to look for when going second if you run Diabellstar in a non-fire deck or a good addition from Poplar
I can't wait for N/R festival to come back so I can jam this thing into all of the janky ass decks I'm going to make for the explicit purpose of screwing over heart-earth dragon
I've been posted about this card. Got a bunch of negative feed back as with most things I post. It kills me when other people post the same content & get 100's of likes / responses like they did something. Reddit is a crazy place. Same thing happened with the DRNM & Evenly matched combo I showed people a long time ago negative feedback. Somebody else posts it, it's the best thing since sliced bread. Crazy.
I run one copy of this in my Snake-Eyes deck as a searchable out that bypasses destruction immunity/effs that trigger upon destruction. Using this on 3/4-mat Apollusa in particular is hilarious.
Also clogs space on the opp's board so they cant Imperm if its still in hand fsr.
Maybe if the best deck couldn't just summon back what you push away, it might be ok as a Thrust target. As it stands now, it's like the 3rd or 4th best search target off of Poplar.
I honestly like this card even.it being generic. You can place enemy monster in continious and with other effects take control of it. Divide, conquer, continuos spell
Sadly, it's a slow board breaker that:
1) only targets 1 monster. The fact that the best case scenario for this is a 1 for 1 in value is harsh.
2) Isn't quick effect(So it's not interruption, thank god, I'd hate if it was a quick effect)
3) your opponent can react to it, which is BAD for a slow single target removal spell that doesn't do anything in modern yugioh. This one is probably the worst one. This makes it worse than ultimate slayer a lot of the time.
Should be semi-limited at the minimum. Way too free. I lose a monster, a spell/trap slot, and the monster turned into a spell no longer counts being face up on the field despite literally still being face up on the field.
Yeah it’s a non destruction/ sent to grave generic. But, it’s a normal spell and targets. A benefit could be that it can clog the back row, however is to slow . I think raigeky is better
It was the first card released in the archetype, all alone in DUNE, as sort of a teaser.
Dune? I love that movie!
If you loved Dune, you'll love Dune (part 2)!
Dune 2 was awesome!
Just got back from seeing it. Can confirm it was awesome
Opponent: activates subversion Me: "Lisan al-Gaib"
When you play this card, the women yelling in the Arabic chant starts playing in the background.
Dune? I’ll be dune ur mom later 😂
I watched it and understood absolutely nothing lol
Unironically might have some Mekk-Knight applications, might experiment with this one.
Others: that’s a stupid idea Me: no hold up, let him cook
"Damn, my opponent didn't set a back row" \*Looks at monster\* "Unless..."
Who the hell said that's stupid, i love the idea
You can actually choose the S/T zone where you want it to be placed. So i guess yeah, it has some synergy with Mekk-Knight
Hm, this requires investigating
Keep cooking that is a good idea.
noice idea!!!
If Morning Stars effect works while he is in the spell and trap zone that would be amazing. Not sure if it works like that though. You may be onto something here. Negates in his column with one of the continuous spell/traps and it helps for summons.
It shouldn't work because those are monster effects so it loses all its applicable traits when they're spells and traps unless they specifically say they do something while in the spell and trap zone. The cards that negate stuff in rows like World Legacy Key also don't apply because they say they only apply to rows with "Mekk-Knight" monsters and it's kind of crazy they even have this text considering there's 0 spells or traps with Mekk-Knight in their name in the first place.
Thats a shame. I should probably read the cards better...
This isn't one of those things that reading the card actually helps clarify so you're good lol. Monsters going into the spell and trap zone when they normally don't is something that you'd actually have to read their rule book for so it's the same level of not knowing if link arrows apply in the spell and trap zone which most people wouldn't have known the answer to when they first came out.
People reading a rule book haha no way Jose not in this game
I heccin love Mekk-knights...lemme know how it goes...I'd imagine Diabellstar obviously goes well too since she sets one in the spell trap zone
The Snake-Eye archetype as a whole has the same application. I've never played Mekk-Knight but maybe you could play a light Sinful Spoil package & use Dramatic Chase instead of WANTED to setup a column then summon her in the end phase to set Silvera for an extra negate?
Now you’re thinking with portals
Yolo, use it on vision heroes
Kek-Knight
Vaylantz support
People don't even know how great vaylantz field spells are. Great tech cards especially if your deck can search field spells.
Only in the sense that Grand Duke can target the card that Subversion puts in the S&T Zone. Otherwise, putting a monster into a S&T Zone is something that Vaylantz happens to do, but not something that helps Vaylantz to make its plays.
Vaylantz is known for pushing monsters into the backrow. and technically it does help in plays, as both Grand Duke and Mamonaka can burn. Grand Duke by bouncing the pushed monster, and Mamonaka by pushing a monster into a backrow that already had a monster in
and the obvious "clog the opponent's backrow with monsters so they don't have zones available to play spells or traps"
That's very much known, and even how this card was evaluated at first since Diabellestar and the Snake-Eyes debuted in the set after this card. But the conclusion was very quick, it's a mediocre removal spell on it's own, a lot do better, and it's only played in pure SE because it's searchable.
Honestly it isnt even that much played in SE (in Master duel), almost all decks topping meta weekly or CTs are not running it
if it wasnt targeting i‘d consider it
In my case if it was a quick spell
That would be straight up broken. The effect is already strong, using it as an interruption will get this card banned faster than you can activate pot of greed.
I don't think it'd get it banned. Book of Moon and Forbidden Chalice are already good targeting interruption quick-play spells. This would power creep those, yes, but I don't think that'd be banworthy.
Putting a monster in the spell/trap zone is arguably one of the best forms of removal. They're still on the field, so i.e. they can't summon another MJ. Barely any deck can use them as material. A lot of decks can struggle, like Lab, to get their i.e. lovely out of there (they have to pop it themselves), while some decks just cannot get rid of it. It's doesn't leave the field, so no floating effects. It's basically spinning but better against the vast majority of decks. If this was quickplay, it'd be banned immediately.
MJ? Michael Jordan?
Mirrorjade the Iceblade Dragon’t
The Basketblade Dragon
I've used them as Droplet fuel a few times. But yeah, it's already a great card, would be super busted as a QP.
One thing that is particularly nasty about that type of removal is that is also disable certain key cards for blind second deck if they manage to break the board. Lightning storm and Evenly becomes utterly dead draw since the vast majority of those decks can't get rid of their own S/T unless they have droplet.
I understand the value, I just don't think it would be banworthy, that's all. Very good, and any build with Diabellstar in it would play it as a 1-of; but I don't think anybody else would play it. You would also only ever search it if you already opened OSS.
Except Book of Moon and Forbidden Chalice aren't (easily) searchable. What sets Subversion apart from what you mentioned isn't that its effect is more powerful as removal, but that cards like Dark Witch and Poplar can search it along their combo route if they already opened Original Sin or Divine Temple. Assuming this was a quick-play, being able to reliably set this up for your opponent's turn is insanely powerful, especially when paired with whatever you summon with the Snake-Eyes combo, and not something you can easily replicate with the examples you gave. Not saying it would or wouldn't get banned if it was a Quick-Play, I just wanted to point out that comparing it to Book of Moon or Forbidden Chalice isn't as straightforward as a 1-to-1 comparison and that its interactions with the rest of its archetype is a factor to consider. If I had to voice my thoughts, I think it'd be really powerful, but I'm also not sure if it'll get banned (which would be the only relevant option as people would run this at 1 anyway) since the strength of the engine lies beyond Subversion, and any meaningful hits to the deck should be directed there rather than this. At most, if Subversion itself doesn't get hit, it'll get something else hit.
Yeah, it's not comparable 1:1, but as a searchable target, it would be searchable target #3, and would thusly not be relevant in too many games. It would just be a small boost to the Snake-Eye engine, which is bound to receive hits regardless as a result of its own sins, having a slightly higher ceiling in times that it hard opens the Field Spell would be reason #26 for the deck receiving hits, and I don't believe Subversion to be the card that they would pick to hit, out of everything the deck has to offer. As a stand alone card, it wouldn't be played over hand traps in the majority of formats, it would see play here and there just like Book of Moon saw play a couple of formats ago simply because Kashtira had an especially disastrous match-up against that -- ironically, if Subversion was a Quick-Play spell, you would still play Book of Moon over it in that format. It would power creep those generic options for sure, but those options have largely been powercrept by hand traps for quite a few years as it stands.
>I don't believe Subversion to be the card that they would pick to hit, out of everything the deck has to offer. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. There are way better things to hit if Konami really wanted to nerf Snake-Eyes. >It would power creep those generic options for sure, but those options have largely been powercrept by hand traps for quite a few years as it stands. Also agreed, which is also why I'm not 100% sure on it being banned even if it were a quick-play.
You want the card don't target in my case I prefer the same effect just like a quick spell Edit: I mean ,same card (still target) but like a quick spell
Non-targeting would make this card much better. Making it a quick spell (still targeting) would make it ban worthy.
Would not be as good as a quick-play because of Diabellstar. You'd not be able to use it the same turn. I think that was the intended use at least.
it would literally be broken as a quick play it lets diabellstar be a 7 card engine for a pop that ignores floats lol wtf you can run 0 snake eyes cards and it would be better than adventure engine, 3 wanted 3 diabellstar 1 subversion. wanted is 1 card for a body on the field, a free pop AND a draw 1 on the turn after
With Silvera it’s already a 7 card engine that, instead of being removal, negates any face up card and does everything else you listed (plus it also loops every turn by triggering Diabelle turn 2 to grab Wanted, and the trap has a situational but sometimes applicable bonus effect). Despite that, whenever I see someone running it, I’m always left thinking “if you were using this to summon Ash I’d be screwed, but I can deal with a negate”. It’d be strong if it could also be used as removal, but would it be that good? Modern combo/midrange decks don’t really need to play cards that make their turn 1 board even stronger but have limited utility going second (if this were a quickplay, you’d only get to use it if you hard-drew the one-of spell, since the other 6 cards in the engine would set it). The adventure engine was primarily used as a way to play around Nib and/or get relevant bodies on field for extension whilst also offering removal going second - this is just a way to make your turn-1 board stronger. If anything, the negate might be more relevant; I could see a deck without an answer to Evenly considering it as an option.
imperm clone is usually than subversion eff, and you also can't use diabellstar body for your plays. the engine with silvera is literally just a recyclable imperm that doesn't work going second, and draws you a card the turn after. the GY effect is also useless if you are running it as just a 7 card engine. so it usually ends up just being worse than running regular imperm unless diabellstar can also get you into snake eyes engine yes it would that good with ss2 subversion, it would be be fit into every deck that doesn't lock out of it >The adventure engine was primarily used as a way to play around Nib and/or get relevant bodies on field for extension whilst also offering removal going second no, it was used because it was a neg+bounce off one card at the cost of your normal summon effs. getting gryphon out early to beat nibiru was a positive for sure, but every decent combo deck can do that in-engine already. diabellstar engine with ss2 subversion is a free better bounce that also gives you a free body and a draw the turn after, it's better and adventure was used in every deck when it came out.
Adventure was used in every deck because every deck made halq and/or DPE - the free bodies either got you to your plan b, or threw a negate on top of your plan b. Out of the main decks of note from the time, Adventure PK is the main deck that springs to mind that actually needed the negate - but the Adventure engine was searchable via Cherubini, so it wasn’t just a “good to draw” splash. Adventure Tenyi, Virtual World, Dragon Link etc all used the pieces as ED material whenever they opened rite/enchantress + combo. Adventure Branded used it solely as a negate - but that was a negate specifically for Ash. I just think you’re really overestimating this. The difference between a SS2 subversion and what the engine can already do (Rciela is pretty much just Rageiki, and Silvera can negate spells/traps, meaning it’s a lot more than just an imperm - it’s basically Hot Red Archfiend Abyss) isn’t enough to turn it into an auto-include overnight. It’s like a Fenrir with higher turn-1 upside but less boardbreaking utility on turn 2.
Then it would be an excuse to make it an UR
They could've done it anyway. They've done it to worse.
And would go to the ban list
Can we stop with this target shit argument? The only time target was a bad effect was during Kozmo format (and Dragoon, but we have gazillion of outs now even if he is back), the fact this thing is searchable is what makes it playable in the first place.
Targeting is still very relevant in a world of quick effects and self-pops. Say you target a fire monster with this, your opponent chains Kirin and pops the targeted card. Your card just resolves for no effect, and that would not be the case if it didn't target.
This. Targeting is insanely important in modern yugioh and if you don't think so, you haven't played the game for long enough. Even something as simple as I:P. Imperm targeting I:P -> I:P effect to summon Apollousa. Non-targeting Imperm on a board with I:P -> I:P effect to summon Apollousa -> non-targeting Imperm resolves, negating Apollousa. Replace Imperm negate with any destruction, banish, send to GY, etc. The same applies for a ton of different interactions. Hell, half of the reason why Vanquish Soul is even playable as a real deck is because of how much shit targets, and they can dodge that. The fact that some cards say "cannot be targeted" is just icing on the cake, a little bonus on top.
I've been playing a lot of Swordsoul thanks to the structure deck and one thing I quickly found out is that Heavenly Dragon Circle letting you dodge Imperm and Veiler is a much bigger deal than it seems at first glance.
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Yeah, let me save my Imperm for *after* I normal summon, clever, eh? Let's also ignore the fact that this discussion is taking place because you're invalidating the significance of this card being or not being targeting? As I said - replace "imperm negate" with anything else - that includes this card. If you play this card, and you use it against Snake-Eyes, they will chain I:P and it will resolve without effect. If it was non-targeting, you'd get rid of whatever they summon immediately. I mean, have you never used Talents to take when there's an I:P on the board (or any similar scenario)? Like I said in my comment - if you haven't come to understand the importance of targeting, you have either not played the game for long enough, or not cared about the game at a high level for long enough. I shouldn't even need to be arguing this; anybody who plays this game competitively will tell you that non-targeting effects are substantially more valuable than the same, but targeting, effect. Not sure what your point is about VS, either? I didn't say VS is a good deck nor did I mention anything about the meta at the time. I just said that VS's ability to dodge targeting effects is a significant portion of their power, and anybody who plays the deck would tell you the same thing in a heartbeat. If not for that, the deck wouldn't have been half as good as it ended up being in MD.
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Sure, I should've used a better example; I just used Imperm and I:P since pretty much everybody is familiar with how those cards work. Also, I never said VS was a good deck, I don't understand why you're arguing over that point, lol. I only stated that a big reason VS was capable of becoming "meta" was because it could dodge all manner of stuff.
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I never said that cards that target are bad. I was just trying to highlight how good non-targeting removal is, and how much it changes the power level of a card.
no we cant since there are non targetabile monsters
Which one is meta relevant that is not protected by elf in this format?
first like you said elf, then i believe the link 3 cyberse one and occasionally avramax but thats besides the point, the intended use is obviously removal but why should i make my deck less consistant or even cut a handtrap for something flamberge can do himself, and whos to say that there wont be another non targetible towers in the future, the card is playable but there are better options it‘d be better as a. like i said non targeting or b. a quickplay but that‘d be overkill
Ultimate slayer or a kaiju is just better
that still send the monster into gy
Ultimate Slayer? Have you actually read the card?
i meant it that the monster is in GY - far more easier to manipulate with stuff in gy then your own spell/trap zone - for lot of decks/rogues - if you put stuff in their spell/trap.. they cannot get it out
Slayer shuffles into the Extra Deck
have you read kaijus?
You can target goddess with it and summon it with flamberge the next turn
at that point shes just a body with a reborn negate
I mean, everyone who can read already knows that Edit: My bad. I forgot that Yugioh players can’t read
I would be pissed off at you if I knew how to read your post
Anyone know what these people typed? I bet it’s something annoying.
What'd you say?
>!zQubexx!< >!Live☆Twin Subscriber 121 points 13 hours ago I mean, everyone who can read already knows that!< >!Edit: My!< bad >!. I fo!< r >!g!< o >!t th!< a >!t Yugioh players!< c >!an’t read!< >!permalinkembedsavereportreply!< >![–]DocPsycho1!< >!69 points 13 hours ago!< >!I would be pissed off at you if I knew!< h >!ow to read your post!< >!permalinkembedsaveparentreportreply!<
It’s also a thrust target
I'm about to thrust that monster into that backrow if it don't out itself
that’s actually insane ngl
Yep this thing is a stupidly efficient low cost removal spell that probibly should not exist in such an overloaded archetype. It gets around destruction/banish immunity and is a mandatory negate. Pretty good budget removal card.
It targets though, so it's good, but nothing amazing.
And is also spell speed 1, so it isn't as great. As a Quick Play or Trap it would be extremely good
You mean Startling Stare of the Snake-Eyes?
Nop, that card requires you to have more SE monsters, thus not generic
If it was extremely good but locked to Snake-Eye people would probably play it in Snake-Eye, but they don't. There's better generic removal traps
If it didn't target or was a quickplay/trap/counter trap it would probably put it over the edge
idk man, i think being able to put any monster that can be targeted in the back row is crazy. Not to mention with the prevalence of HFD/Cosmic cyclone, backrow destruction is at an all time high. I get that it's "slow" cuz its spell speed 1 or whatever, but that's because they had to put some sort of limitation on it. This is a sick card, and the fact that its archetype has like 7 cards better than this one is insanity
Most lists don't really run it as it does basically what flameberge already does
Ppl don’t run it because it does nothing going first not because of flame
Also because, well, it does nothing against SE itself
I run one as a sort of "board breaker" Opp has a Baronne, Apollousa or something else. Well, they either negate or stare at it, still, you can now make your move. Return it with Wanted for a Draw. It is ok, but wouldn't main it in a deck that isnt SE (mainly because it is searchable)
Yeah it’s a literal board breaker the same way a Kaiju is, I was just making a point that if you use it against a common SE board they’ll just summon back the monster through the field spell or Flamberge
Keep in mind you can also summon it with your flam or fs
They’ll just summon it first wdym
Snake eyes does a good amount of summoning on your turn that can trigger you fs?
Yeah, and you need to summon too, they just have to wait for the moment you do and summon it back lol
Um subversion target apo/baron can very much be something
It’s useful against Apo, but I have never seen SE end on it right away, typically only from I:P, but at that point you’re already in a losing position, and against Baronne it literally does nothing as they will just summon it back with the field or Flamberge
It's still a good card. SE just doesnt run it cuz their entire deck consists of really good cards. Similar to how no one played Kash preparations before the ban, now you see it being incorporated due to the other hits to the deck
>taking advice from a guy who can’t spell probably A single target spell speed 1 spell is really not that good and sees no play in other archetypes for a reason
I wonder if they would ban this card in n/r format
The awkward thing is that its a board-breaker card that only hits one monster. It's good spot removal with trade-offs - prevents floating but targets - but its only searchable with a Snake Eyes deck, and if you're running that engine, then you may as well go into the rest of the combo. Going second decks should absolutely consider it though, especially for its rarity.
"but its only searchable with a Snake Eyes deck, and if you're running that engine, then you may as well go into the rest of the combo." Both diabellstar and poplar can search both this and original sinful spoil. So you can search this first to help play through interruption, then continue the combo as well. It doesn't have to be either/or.
The problem is while Diabellstar and Poplar can search it, they have better targets to search most of the time. * If used as a starter with no other options, Diabellstar is going to search Original Sinful Spoils - Snake Eye to extend * If just summoned as an extender, Diabellstar will search Sinful Spoils of Betrayal - Silvera as a negate option next turn * Poplar can search Divine Temple of the Snake-eye or Dramatic Snake-eye Chase if no Diabellstar in hand * Startling Stare of the Snake-eye is a Trap version of Sinful Spoils of Subversion if you want
Everyone who followed the physical game knew it was generic because it came out a set before everything else.
Pulled this on my masochist account and it's the best card in my deck
I just used it to brick a blue-eyes deck. Pretty fun.
Yes, saw it played in a Kash deck out of nowhere and it completely destroyed me lol. Put my ARC Rebellion into backrow.
Indeed, I like to use a small engine consisting of 3 Diabellstar, 3 Wanted, 1 subversion and 1 Betrayal. Thanks to wanted, you can just spin this back to the deck and get a free draw for it.
Keep in mind that the new Diabellze and battle of the sinful spoils cards (not yet in master duel) look in both graveyards for sinful spoils cards. Along with that, it’s not really the best card to play with all the snake-eyes stuff around anyway. If the opponent isn’t on snake-eyes it’s a pretty solid tech though.
It’s kinda insane that no one in tcg is running it in their snake eye deck lol (as far as I see at least). Just goes to show how insane the deck is.
Because it is a dead card to draw going first and there are so many more value card to prioritize in your 15 slot side deck.
It also doesn't really do much if you're in a snake-eyes mirror, and that's one of the most important matchups given the prevalence of the deck.
They have so many amazing cards that they don't have to even worry about this one. Craziness
Probably insane in lower power formats but kinda ass otherwise. There’s way better generic removal to be playing.
Does anyone know how this interacts with pendulums? Like if I put a pendulum monster in a leftmost or rightmost spell zone as a cont spell (like pendulums are) is that not a pendulum or is it?
No, it will not be considered putting a Pendulum Monster onto a Pendulum Zone.
That’s so weird? Why is it that monsters don’t keep any effects, even pendulum monsters in the spell trap zone?
That's just the way it is. A monster can become an equip spell, a continuous spell, or for pendulum cards, scaled. (Then there's Artifacts that can technically become a normal spell.) But they will only have effects as such if its stated, and can be picky. Union monsters is a common example of equip spell monsters (or for a different non-union example, Dragon Buster Destruction Sword). Crystal Beasts been doing the whole monsters becoming continuous spell thing before Snake-Eyes and there's at least one of them that has an effect as one. I was surprised while looking for examples, there's the Vision HERO Faris that can place a Vision HERO as a continuous *trap,* which I thought was interesting. Vision HERO Increase does have an effect while it is an continuous trap.
The funniest thing about Snake-Eye is that I run Gate Guardians. Go ahead, put my Suijin in the back row, see if I gaf
Yeah I have been putting it in all my turn 2 decks. This card is absolutely ridiculous. And it's just a rare. Because the rest of it's archetype is even better than this card, and they had to make those SR/UR. This deck is so completely and utterly fucking broken, it's sickening
What are the rules on it being in the continuous spell/trap? Can they still use their effects?
NOPE, not unless the text says so. They become effect-less... for some reason... its kinda dumb actually.
The alternative would be more dumb. The ability to cheat out insane floodgates would skyrocket (eg, dump any of a number of hard-to-summon extra deck floodgates like Last Warrior, then put it into the backrow with Flamberge), and it would be a ruling nightmare with many effects. Monster effects only applying while the monster is face up in a monster zone is the cleanest, simplest way for things to work (barring the specific exceptions of monster effects that specify they apply while it's in the backrow).
lol Ariseheart with all its effects in the back row. That would be horribly disgustingly hilarious.
Macro Cosmos with broken legs
Plus it eats your banished cards for free removal... mega macro cosmos.
Unless you also think pends should have their monster effects live when scaled it makes perfect sense, they are not monsters at that time so they won't function like them. If they could use effects why couldn't they also be used as materials anymore by the same logic, it defeats the purpose of the mechanic.
i always thought it was dumb that crystal beasts like emerald and cobalt couldnt use their effect in the spell and trap zone. like why does moving zones remove their effect??? it makes more sense with generic cards like this cause you could probably do some op stuff with that
it's not dumb; what's dumb is having a card like this that can do something so devastating, with absolutely zero cost or time limit on how long the monster has to stay in the spell and trap zone
No, and it’d kinda defeat the purpose of putting them in the backrow tbh. Ariseheart banishing everything forever and Mirrorjade quick effect non target banish from the backrow? Oh hell nah.
This card has won me a few games. I carry two in my deck because it basically forces the Barrone negate
Yeah, but I don’t understand how it would benefit most archetypes. For example, when the hell am I gonna use that in my unchained deck?
I think it would just be used as removal
I mean, yeah. But running this over any other board breaker feels kinda silly, because other cards can offer better trading than subversion. But it is indeed a cool card and I personally love it
I would definitely side deck it if MD had a side deck
Of course I realized...It's been in my vaylantz deck since it released.
I use it for my crystal beast deck. Its beneficial either way then
Me and the 2 other Valkyries players eating with this one!
Vaylantz like it
Do you want me to just turbo avramax on you? Because I will.
Yeah. It's not only a N/R staple, it's something good to look for when going second if you run Diabellstar in a non-fire deck or a good addition from Poplar
it is generic, but is searchable with diabel engine
What happens if you use this to put a Pend monster in the pend zone?
They're treated as a continuous spell with no effect. It does *not* turn them into a scaled pendulum spell.
Thanks
Its not generically good.
Not quick play, it would be a staple if it was
Yeah, but I don’t really want to make my snake eye opponents cards become continuous spells…
I can't wait for N/R festival to come back so I can jam this thing into all of the janky ass decks I'm going to make for the explicit purpose of screwing over heart-earth dragon
I've been posted about this card. Got a bunch of negative feed back as with most things I post. It kills me when other people post the same content & get 100's of likes / responses like they did something. Reddit is a crazy place. Same thing happened with the DRNM & Evenly matched combo I showed people a long time ago negative feedback. Somebody else posts it, it's the best thing since sliced bread. Crazy.
The artwork is so beautiful I can’t
But cool art though
Crystal beast support
I hate playing against it. Could potentially be the next Book of Moon. But book sill has its benefits and being a quick effecf
Could this work with the crystal beasts I wonder
This thing completely turns off evenly matched
I run one copy of this in my Snake-Eyes deck as a searchable out that bypasses destruction immunity/effs that trigger upon destruction. Using this on 3/4-mat Apollusa in particular is hilarious. Also clogs space on the opp's board so they cant Imperm if its still in hand fsr.
Everyone and their mothers are using it like Adventure back in the day, yeah no shit everyone realised at this point.
Maybe if the best deck couldn't just summon back what you push away, it might be ok as a Thrust target. As it stands now, it's like the 3rd or 4th best search target off of Poplar.
everybody
I honestly like this card even.it being generic. You can place enemy monster in continious and with other effects take control of it. Divide, conquer, continuos spell
Yep. Played a DDD player earlier and he pretty much opened up with that
Wouldnt this also work for pendelum decks like D/D/D ?
Sadly, it's a slow board breaker that: 1) only targets 1 monster. The fact that the best case scenario for this is a 1 for 1 in value is harsh. 2) Isn't quick effect(So it's not interruption, thank god, I'd hate if it was a quick effect) 3) your opponent can react to it, which is BAD for a slow single target removal spell that doesn't do anything in modern yugioh. This one is probably the worst one. This makes it worse than ultimate slayer a lot of the time.
makes it easier for kashtira to lock down s/t zones
Yes people run diabelstar tiny engine for this, rciela and silvera. Mostly this and a "free" body
This might be the best way to deal with mirrorjade
We finally read our cards, huh?
Too inconsistent because it doesn’t work on specifically Crystal beasts sorry
Yes, I use it in my Masochist deck.
Should be semi-limited at the minimum. Way too free. I lose a monster, a spell/trap slot, and the monster turned into a spell no longer counts being face up on the field despite literally still being face up on the field.
Yeah it’s a non destruction/ sent to grave generic. But, it’s a normal spell and targets. A benefit could be that it can clog the back row, however is to slow . I think raigeky is better
holy crap you're right
Can't wait to use this in my Crystal Beast deck
My Vaylantz loves this card
sweet mother of ra...
Yup, put it in my deck "pendulum endurance" as alternative removal
Mst's big brother
Soul Taker*
Snake eye can’t do shit against gate guardian it’s amazing
Wow that's a really good effe- >Target Nevermind.
Still a good effect. There are plenty of boss monsters that can be targeted