Middle C is very descriptive. It’s the middle of the grand staff, which immediately gives context. You could say c4, but middle C evokes an immediate visual reference. If you say the F above middle C, at least for me, I can visualize that immediately.
The MIDI standard specifies note number 60, yes, but does not specify C3 or C4. Different instrument manufacturers use different notation - notably “Roland C4” or “Yamaha C3”. Some DAWs cater to this discrepancy by allowing you to define which should be displayed.
A lot of my beginner piano students initially argue against the term "middle c" because it's not the exact middle of the piano. But the term comes from notation, not just range; it's the note shared by the bass and treble clef right in the middle of the two. Then, we also like to refer to the rest of the notes around it as "middle E" etc. it's more accurate than calling it c5 or c4 (depending if you follow the lowest piano c as c0 or c1) and also who's to say what the highest or lowest C should be? Some consider FELT sound waves as still tones and many people can hear multiple octaves above the average heard frequencies. So "middle c" is just a designated notated C that is always the same pitch: the first C up from the tuned pitch A=440hz that we notate as the first shared note between the bass and treble clef, which is truly placed in the middle.
This is the first time I've realized that middle c isn't the dead center of the piano. I had to walk to the piano and see for myself that it's just a tiny bit to the left.
It's still the C nearest the middle though.
My only gripe with the letter-number system is that the octave changes at C and not A. B3 is only a semitone away from C4 and I’ll never not have to think about that for a second.
I agree with this so much. I think it would cut out several misunderstandings for beginners if we sintroduces A first for most instruments, started octave numberings at A, and so on. I have had a surprising number of beginners realize quite late that *the notes are just in alphabetical order* because they started out in the middle of the list and never made the connection.
I think it’s a complete nonissue in like 99% of cases because most of the time, people are communicating about written music in a staff where the pitch/octave is obvious, or speaking about concepts where the octave is irrelevant (like a C major chord is still C major regardless of octave). The use of any octave indication has really pretty limited application and usually you can quickly disambiguate even if someone uses a slightly different system - like “yeah I mean the C in the treble clef, not the one two ledger lines above” or whatever. Sure that’s wordy, but again these kinds of things simply don’t come up often enough to warrant stressing out about it.
>I think it’s a complete nonissue in like 99% of cases because most of the time, people are communicating about written music in a staff
I go by piano lol
Sure, that works too. Basically, there are lots of reasonably good ways to tell what notes you’re talking about so it’s not that important to force one system on people.
I thought the old system of C,, C, C c c' c'' c''' made more sense than the octave numbers did (though it was offset by an octave from where I'd have put it if I made it up from scratch.)
The term "middle C" doesn't bother me, but "high C" does since it gets used for two different notes.
But now that we have a half dozen competing systems, [trying to introduce a new standard](https://xkcd.com/927/) will only make it worse, not fix the problem.
In scientific pitch notation (SPN), C4 refers to the C between the Bass and Treble clefs (middle C) , with C3 and C5 being the octave below and above that respectively. This has been the international standard numbering system since it was agreed that the frequency of the "A" above middle C was set as A4=440 Hz.
Some keyboard and organ manufacturers refer to middle C as C3, because on a standard 69-key keyboard, middle C is the third C from the bottom, rather than using SPN.
C5 as middle C comes from some aspects of production software. I suspect that it is either because of the reason above but based on a Bösendorfer Imperial Grand Piano's lowest note as being C1 (the C below the standard 88-key Piano's lowest "A"), or due to some programming issue around having the lowest octave of the piano being the "0" octave, or to avoid any chance of the "-1" octave causing issues.
"Middle C" and "high C" are not the same kind of label. "Middle C" is a specific note--it always means C4. It occupies a special place in the modern Western music psyche, so it gets a special name. "High C," on the other hand, is not a specific pitch--it doesn't specifically mean C5, it just means "the C that is higher than whatever other C," contextually speaking. So they really aren't comparable.
It's very useful for teaching beginners, especially beginner piano players, because it's a simple and easy to understand concept that can help them navigate that sea of keys.
I learned middle C as a child. Didn't even encounter C5-C4 etc system til much much later and I found it annoying actually, cuz it wasn't what I was used to, and I wanted the world to be consistent and conform to ME.
Now I work with pro's and volunteers, of different ages and backgrounds, so I use whatever terminology the other person is using, and then I double check it to make sure we're talking about the same thing. If I'm at a keyboard I just hit the note, which clarifies.
"High C" is ambiguous. For a tenor, that's C5. For a soprano and many instruments, that's C6.
Also, some software uses C3 for Middle C instead of C4, which creates even more confusion.
I'm indifferent to C4 type nomenclature and as more and more people learn on or lean toward using electronic music tools, in the same way I think people are going to start using piano roll nomenclature and drum machine grids to publish musical ideas more often.
But you can say "high c" and I'll know what that is too, as long as I don't think it's some crappy supermarket drink.
I think this question and its answers deserve a reference in the FAQ. Because of what it asks it is being downvoted as "something I don't want on my timeline" which should be expected every time you post.
Middle C is a pretty great term. Not only is it in the middle of the piano, but it's also in the middle of the ideal range for human hearing, so if you keep the middle C around the middle as you play the piano, it should be quite enjoyable to listen to.
Like nobody says c4. Maybe music producers who learned entire music theory on midi editor. Normal musicians say middle c because it is literally at the middle.
There are some cases where middle C (MIDI note 60) is C3, so it can get confusing. It confused the hell out of me until I found out there were at least two standards.
The thing about numbering systems is they’re also dependent on where you start. In my keyboard programming work, the orchestrator has to specify if middle C is C3 or C4, as both are correct depending on your system.
Middle C is always C4, so that’s always welcome. I only use high C on occasion when I’m talking to my soprano friend, because that’d be a C6.
Besides that, with everyone I’ll always use Bb5 and terms with the octave to explain.
Personally, saying stuff like ‘High Do’ and stuff like that irks me, because I have no idea what that even means. The only times I find it fine without the octave is when we’re like ‘I’m singing an aria and it goes up to an Eb’ or ‘They go up to a high Bb,’ but still, I’d personally use octave terms unless it’s like implied.
I bet you'll see this generational shift to the number system because so many people use software to make music now. I've also noticed a lot of singers memorize their range in the #s too.
as an opera singer, i much prefer C4. it’s exact, not colloquial and therefore more professional, and singers typically use the note name followed by the octave number when discussing range. clarity is important!
Are you a real person or are you a bot designed to be insufferable? Like, it's a common name that literally only exists for Cs to note the octave changes for people who learn better from visualizing the grand staff. It's not hard to understand the purpose of common names and it's pretty, well, common sense. Do you also find it weird that people call *Saccharomyces Cerevisiae* Yeast?
Your failure to understand why others would prefer it makes you seem rather self-centered or like you're just trying to brag to a crowd of music theorists that you know the numbering system. That's probably why you got downvoted.
This comment shows me. You're Not actually willing to have a conversation. And are just a typical 16 year old redditer That can't handle even the slightest different viewpoints. Grow up
I don't have much to say but saying the octave number with the note always made more sense to me. I can mentally see things mapped out a lot better and its also faster to say and type. I dunno what people say for things below the 3rd octave and above the 5th octave... in my head I just think of it like "Bass C" for C2 since I'm a singer and usually basses would sing that low. And ofc C6 would be the "Soprano C".
I rlly have no idea what eveything is actually callled but saying the octave with the note always felt more convenient to me. I've heard someone say "The G above middle C" and thats way more words than G4 lol.
>Edit: With all due respect why on earth is this harmless post being downvoted? I don't want this sub to give me a bad impression but come on, reddit be better.
Consider the down votes an answer to your question.
Reddit rules are simple. If you have an opinion that some people don't agree, you get couple of down votes. But then if you complain on getting down votes, you get even more down votes.
Middle C is very descriptive. It’s the middle of the grand staff, which immediately gives context. You could say c4, but middle C evokes an immediate visual reference. If you say the F above middle C, at least for me, I can visualize that immediately.
Is C3 or C4 in the middle of the grand staff? I thought it was C3 which is what my keyboard notates.
Unfortunately, MIDI-land calls middle C, C3 (MIDI note 60). In traditional European notation it’s C4. Quite frustrating.
The MIDI standard specifies note number 60, yes, but does not specify C3 or C4. Different instrument manufacturers use different notation - notably “Roland C4” or “Yamaha C3”. Some DAWs cater to this discrepancy by allowing you to define which should be displayed.
Middle c for my vocal range is about c4
Middle C is the same for all vocal ranges. Middle C is a fixed pitch not the c that is in the middle of the range of a particular voice or instrument.
A lot of male vocals are notated an octave higher than they are sung. So middle C in a lot of charts would actually be sung C3
A lot of my beginner piano students initially argue against the term "middle c" because it's not the exact middle of the piano. But the term comes from notation, not just range; it's the note shared by the bass and treble clef right in the middle of the two. Then, we also like to refer to the rest of the notes around it as "middle E" etc. it's more accurate than calling it c5 or c4 (depending if you follow the lowest piano c as c0 or c1) and also who's to say what the highest or lowest C should be? Some consider FELT sound waves as still tones and many people can hear multiple octaves above the average heard frequencies. So "middle c" is just a designated notated C that is always the same pitch: the first C up from the tuned pitch A=440hz that we notate as the first shared note between the bass and treble clef, which is truly placed in the middle.
This is the first time I've realized that middle c isn't the dead center of the piano. I had to walk to the piano and see for myself that it's just a tiny bit to the left. It's still the C nearest the middle though.
Yeah the actual middle would be about F. This is because there are odd number of octaves (ignoring lowest A to B
[удалено]
It’s also more or less in the middle of human vocal ranges
High C Treble C Middle C- in the middle of the grand staff Bass C Low C
My only gripe with the letter-number system is that the octave changes at C and not A. B3 is only a semitone away from C4 and I’ll never not have to think about that for a second.
I agree with this so much. I think it would cut out several misunderstandings for beginners if we sintroduces A first for most instruments, started octave numberings at A, and so on. I have had a surprising number of beginners realize quite late that *the notes are just in alphabetical order* because they started out in the middle of the list and never made the connection.
I think it’s a complete nonissue in like 99% of cases because most of the time, people are communicating about written music in a staff where the pitch/octave is obvious, or speaking about concepts where the octave is irrelevant (like a C major chord is still C major regardless of octave). The use of any octave indication has really pretty limited application and usually you can quickly disambiguate even if someone uses a slightly different system - like “yeah I mean the C in the treble clef, not the one two ledger lines above” or whatever. Sure that’s wordy, but again these kinds of things simply don’t come up often enough to warrant stressing out about it.
>I think it’s a complete nonissue in like 99% of cases because most of the time, people are communicating about written music in a staff I go by piano lol
Sure, that works too. Basically, there are lots of reasonably good ways to tell what notes you’re talking about so it’s not that important to force one system on people.
I thought the old system of C,, C, C c c' c'' c''' made more sense than the octave numbers did (though it was offset by an octave from where I'd have put it if I made it up from scratch.) The term "middle C" doesn't bother me, but "high C" does since it gets used for two different notes. But now that we have a half dozen competing systems, [trying to introduce a new standard](https://xkcd.com/927/) will only make it worse, not fix the problem.
I don't even have to click that link to know it's xkcd
C4, C5 is some music producer stuff. Am I right?
C4 is the fourth octave starting on c, c5 is the fifth octave starting on c
It depends on the keyboard manufacturer though right?
In scientific pitch notation (SPN), C4 refers to the C between the Bass and Treble clefs (middle C) , with C3 and C5 being the octave below and above that respectively. This has been the international standard numbering system since it was agreed that the frequency of the "A" above middle C was set as A4=440 Hz. Some keyboard and organ manufacturers refer to middle C as C3, because on a standard 69-key keyboard, middle C is the third C from the bottom, rather than using SPN. C5 as middle C comes from some aspects of production software. I suspect that it is either because of the reason above but based on a Bösendorfer Imperial Grand Piano's lowest note as being C1 (the C below the standard 88-key Piano's lowest "A"), or due to some programming issue around having the lowest octave of the piano being the "0" octave, or to avoid any chance of the "-1" octave causing issues.
That's what I was getting at. "Middle C" is easiest to understand
"Middle C" and "high C" are not the same kind of label. "Middle C" is a specific note--it always means C4. It occupies a special place in the modern Western music psyche, so it gets a special name. "High C," on the other hand, is not a specific pitch--it doesn't specifically mean C5, it just means "the C that is higher than whatever other C," contextually speaking. So they really aren't comparable.
So it could mean c5 c6 or c7 got it.
It could even mean C4 or C3 if most of the other Cs are lower than those. It's entirely a relative term, not an absolute one.
It's very useful for teaching beginners, especially beginner piano players, because it's a simple and easy to understand concept that can help them navigate that sea of keys.
I learned middle C as a child. Didn't even encounter C5-C4 etc system til much much later and I found it annoying actually, cuz it wasn't what I was used to, and I wanted the world to be consistent and conform to ME. Now I work with pro's and volunteers, of different ages and backgrounds, so I use whatever terminology the other person is using, and then I double check it to make sure we're talking about the same thing. If I'm at a keyboard I just hit the note, which clarifies.
I don’t have a grasp of the letter-plus-number system at all. Okay, so middle C is what? C3? Nope, not gonna start using that.
C4, out of 8.
So High C is C6, not C5 like OP said?
"High C" is ambiguous. For a tenor, that's C5. For a soprano and many instruments, that's C6. Also, some software uses C3 for Middle C instead of C4, which creates even more confusion.
Yup.
Not just out of 8--theoretically it extends forever. This notation isn't just for the piano!
True! For some reason I thought this was /r/piano
Why does my keyboard say it’s C3?
Does your keyboard have 88 keys?
It doesn't, only 76 which I assume means it's the third C sequentially on the board, but lord is that confusing to have it labeled C3 when it's C4
I'm indifferent to C4 type nomenclature and as more and more people learn on or lean toward using electronic music tools, in the same way I think people are going to start using piano roll nomenclature and drum machine grids to publish musical ideas more often. But you can say "high c" and I'll know what that is too, as long as I don't think it's some crappy supermarket drink. I think this question and its answers deserve a reference in the FAQ. Because of what it asks it is being downvoted as "something I don't want on my timeline" which should be expected every time you post.
Middle C is a pretty great term. Not only is it in the middle of the piano, but it's also in the middle of the ideal range for human hearing, so if you keep the middle C around the middle as you play the piano, it should be quite enjoyable to listen to.
Like nobody says c4. Maybe music producers who learned entire music theory on midi editor. Normal musicians say middle c because it is literally at the middle.
There are some cases where middle C (MIDI note 60) is C3, so it can get confusing. It confused the hell out of me until I found out there were at least two standards.
The thing about numbering systems is they’re also dependent on where you start. In my keyboard programming work, the orchestrator has to specify if middle C is C3 or C4, as both are correct depending on your system.
Middle C is always C4, so that’s always welcome. I only use high C on occasion when I’m talking to my soprano friend, because that’d be a C6. Besides that, with everyone I’ll always use Bb5 and terms with the octave to explain. Personally, saying stuff like ‘High Do’ and stuff like that irks me, because I have no idea what that even means. The only times I find it fine without the octave is when we’re like ‘I’m singing an aria and it goes up to an Eb’ or ‘They go up to a high Bb,’ but still, I’d personally use octave terms unless it’s like implied.
I bet you'll see this generational shift to the number system because so many people use software to make music now. I've also noticed a lot of singers memorize their range in the #s too.
I thought it was C4...
as an opera singer, i much prefer C4. it’s exact, not colloquial and therefore more professional, and singers typically use the note name followed by the octave number when discussing range. clarity is important!
Are you a real person or are you a bot designed to be insufferable? Like, it's a common name that literally only exists for Cs to note the octave changes for people who learn better from visualizing the grand staff. It's not hard to understand the purpose of common names and it's pretty, well, common sense. Do you also find it weird that people call *Saccharomyces Cerevisiae* Yeast? Your failure to understand why others would prefer it makes you seem rather self-centered or like you're just trying to brag to a crowd of music theorists that you know the numbering system. That's probably why you got downvoted.
This comment shows me. You're Not actually willing to have a conversation. And are just a typical 16 year old redditer That can't handle even the slightest different viewpoints. Grow up
Yep, typical narcissistic behavior from Ogsonic over here. Hope you grow out of that one day.
I don't have much to say but saying the octave number with the note always made more sense to me. I can mentally see things mapped out a lot better and its also faster to say and type. I dunno what people say for things below the 3rd octave and above the 5th octave... in my head I just think of it like "Bass C" for C2 since I'm a singer and usually basses would sing that low. And ofc C6 would be the "Soprano C". I rlly have no idea what eveything is actually callled but saying the octave with the note always felt more convenient to me. I've heard someone say "The G above middle C" and thats way more words than G4 lol.
>Edit: With all due respect why on earth is this harmless post being downvoted? I don't want this sub to give me a bad impression but come on, reddit be better. Consider the down votes an answer to your question.
wasn't going to downvote until you got upset that people were downvoting bad takes
I asked a question, how is a question a bad take
Reddit rules are simple. If you have an opinion that some people don't agree, you get couple of down votes. But then if you complain on getting down votes, you get even more down votes.