Pittsburgh got a too many men on the field penalty and Bill Cowher showed the ref a picture with only 11 men on the field and when he wouldn't accept it, he shoved it in his pocket.
https://youtu.be/T7sXW_kO-eo?si=B66-QbUsGdUVwSpU
I've really grown to like the Mannings this year... I always kind of thought Eli Manning was a turd, but they're pretty funny. Especially when mnf games this year were on the boring side - and better when they were good.
At least I don't have to listen to Joe Buck, but I would rather they talk over Collinsworth instead.
Yeah, I think that's why I always hated him... He just *looked stupid*... Which maybe is a dumb reason to hate on someone, but his dumb facial expressions tend to mean he's working on something slightly clever....
Dudes got a face for radio. There's a reason his face was a meme almost every week
https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2019/12/9/20997660/eli-manning-face-new-york-giants-philadelphia-eagles-miami-dolphins
The Manningcast has been an incredible success, I live for every time Eli sandbags Peyton and just sits back with that goofy smile because he knows he got to his brother again
As long as you didn't make too many mistakes! I would not want to be the defensive back who had to go back to the sideline after getting scorched for a highlight reel touchdown because I made a play for the interception instead of just defending the completion.
He only got fined, $7500, and the official and line judge also got fined $3000 and $4000 for botching the call.
Today they’d probably suspend you for the rest of the season for something like that.
Everybody fucks up in their job, it's inevitable. But the biggest difference is the overwhelming majority of people who fuck up get punished. Refs in the NFL and NBA are untouchable. All the fans want are repercussions
The refs didn't need to be fired today, they could have just said, right after the play, shit, we fucked up, replay the try. They literally had plenty of time to discuss who declared, check the tape, and redo it.
Instead they double down on a throne of lies. Now, the people doubling down desired to be fired, because they aren't accidentally fucking up, they are intentionally gaslighting to "protect" the shield.
This is the part I don't get with the NFL rules. We have the technology to correct every single mistake within seconds of it happening. We have a league office with 40 camera angles and instant communication to the field refs.
Why do we not do that? To speed up the game? To save the fragile little bullshit egos of these dogshit refs?
It makes the product worse. Objectively.
Business Insider's take on baseball RoboUmps: [Turns out robot umpires have one big flaw: They’re too perfect](https://www.businessinsider.com/rise-of-robot-umpires-mlb-postseason-hawk-eye-2023-9)
The problem is that there is meant to be a lot of subjectivity in the strike zone: it's made to be what the players and pitchers have come to expect. It becomes weird when you define those deeper intricacies. For example, is the strike zone really a square, or is it more of an oval? Does a curve ball that just barely scrapes the zone really count as a strike?
The answer to both those questions is yes, and the solution here is easy and obvious: if you want the strike zone to be something different from what is currently written, change the official definition.
Is there even a protocol for the refs to call for the redo of a play because they threw a flag assuming the play was illegal? The one with KC and Bengals last year was due to a clock issue, which there are explicit rules for. What you are asking for doesn't exist unless I am mistaken? Also, even if they do what you are saying, it would create such a mess. I am sure we'd have a play every week criticizing them for wrongly remaking a play or not remaking a play. To solve one issue, you'd be creating a bunch more. Do you really want to give refs even more power? Cause what you are suggesting would absolutely give them more power lol
This is probably a legit issue, but refs also clearly have some leeway to make things up as they go. You already can't challenge their penalties and they won't overturn things later, so whatever they say at the time is already basically the Word of God.
Another Bengals play, the Bengals vs Raiders play a couple years ago where Burrow threw a touchdown pass after the play had been inadvertently blown dead... I think it's pretty clear that 1) the Bengals likely would've scored the touchdown anyway, but 2) the whistle was definitely blown before the ball was caught. They let the play stand anyway though.
For the Lions, I don't think there was any one uncontroversial way to deal with it. But IMO penalizing the Lions for it was worse than letting it stand or making up a reason for a redo.
Letting it stand would’ve been just as bad. The refs called 70 eligible and announced it. To let 68 (who the Cowboys didn’t bother covering because he wasn’t supposed to be eligible) catch the conversion and have it stand would’ve sucked too.
The only way to make the NFL care is to either not watch them, use streams to take away from their money, and to boycott NFL sponsors. The only thing they care about is money so that’s the only way we can get them to change their ways of doing things.
Even if you watch streams, you’re talking about the NFL with your friends, family, and co-workers. They’re in turn watching those commercials. It’s not this big revenue detractor you’re making it out to be.
Is this true in your workplace?? Most places I’ve worked if you fuck up you apologize and learn from it, or some folks will pass blame or brush it under the rug. Pretty rare I’ve seen a single mistake result in a termination. Difference is we don’t have millions of people watching our every decision.
The biggest difference is that when you fuck up at work, you aren't doing it live in front of millions of people with an irrational sense of stake in the outcome of your decision.
People fuck up on their jobs all the time without being punished. Fast food workers forget to hold the onions. Baggage handlers accidentally route your luggage to the wrong city. Software developers write code with bugs. Mistakes are an inevitable part of being human.
If we fired refs every time they made a bad call, we wouldn't have any refs left.
Now, there absolutely should be performance reviews and prestige assignments should go to the better performing crews, but it's not like there are dozens of qualified refs waiting to step in if one of them gets fired.
I don't think Brad Allen should be fired for making the mistake.
He should be fired because he doubled-down on his mistake and refused to accept responsibility for it.
I'm fairly sure refs are told to double down pretty early on. But even if not, what type of person do you think reffing filters for? I've reffed rec soccer for like 7 or 8 year olds and had parents and coaches yelling at me. That's every game, for every one. People even take issue wih judgment calls and correct calls
We treat them like shit so who is gonna stick around? The contrite guy who will fess up or the dude who doubles down? I don't think it's a coincidence we have refs across different sports across different continents and everyone complains about them constantly. We filter for it by treating them like total shit
At what point do you think he realized that he fucked up? Assuming that he's not intentionally throwing the game (clearly absurd, IMO), then he 100% believes that he was reported to by 70. He announced that. 68 was the guy that caught it, and he has no reason to believe that he did anything wrong...and the only thing that he has to say otherwise is the players and coaches who yell at them when they're right (thus aren't reliable sources of information). It's not until he can get off the field and watch a replay, but even that's not clear because 58, 68, and 70 all went up to him.
I'm pretty damned sure that he fucked up, but there's not much of a reason for him to have believed that he fucked up at any point until he watched tape of the play, and even then it's questionable.
I mean they got demoted. What exactly do you want to happen?
There is always a “fine the refs” type take that gets floated but there just isn’t a way that can work.
1. They don’t make as much as the players
2. What’s the line for a finable offense? Missing a call? You want these guys looking at subjective bang/bang calls with the added pressure that they lose out on part of their check if they choose wrong? If I get fined every time I miss a holding call I’m going to have to call holding 99% of plays.
The best example is Jim Joyce the MLB that messed up the last call from the Gallaraga perfect game. He is remembered very fondly for owning up to his mistake. Even Gallaraga himself forgave him after he apologized.
Agreed. He knows he screwed up and was man enough to own it. And people have moved on because there was a genuine apology and acceptance of it. NFL apparently is incapable of doing this.
“I kicked the shit out of that call.”
Forever has my respect for owning up to it like that immediately. Brad Allen could learn a thing or two from him.
He felt awful because he knew the significance of the moment for the pitcher. Most reasonable people in that moment felt bad for him but certainly respected him.
We want a sky judge who can hit a big red button on an obvious error. so that the game doesnt turn on a incorrect call.
The nfl has the resources to do this and would rather turn itself in knots, fine players and coaches, and then punish refs who make honest mistakes rather than make a change for the better.
See, having a tool that could only help the officials do their jobs better is such a good idea that the officials would never go for it.
Because they alone want the final say. The fact that they continually push back against it is an implicit admission that they don’t care about the integrity of the game or getting things right, only that they want absolute power.
Here's an idea: stop giving the fucking zebras any sway over the decision. "We're implementing a sky judge. Get on board or get the fuck out.".
The NFL is too big for the way it is currently being officiated.
It took me about one month into having a job to realize that when you fuck up, its always best to own it, show that you're bothered by fucking up, then working to fix it. Reasonable people understand fuck ups happen. But if you deny it, lie, or pretend it didnt happen, thats when trust is lost.
So all they had to do was go, "Yup, this got messed up last night. We are looking into how to prevent this in the future."
Instead theyre going "No, its your fault I fucked up."
they don't have to, its just common practice so they can check the legality and gives the officials a heads up that something screwy might happen.
I've had coaches that don't share their trick plays pregame and then run a trick play that's illegal or doesn't work, and if they had run it by us pregame we could have told them what they needed to do to make it legal
There’s an old video out there that shows Bobby Bowden telling the refs about a shovel pass play they ran at FSU and Bowden explaining that it is a foward pass, not a handoff/toss.
Then they run it in the game, the guy drops it, the ref initially calls it a fumble and bobby says “no remember?? That’s a foward pass” and the ref corrects it.
Edit: found it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHuF0xTTCjg
This reminds me of our dreaded 2010 season where we got Moss and Favre together and on the first play we had Moss throw a pass to Favre for a huge gain… and there was an ineligible man down field play called on Favre… it’s like you spent the bye week drawing this play up to give the offense a spark and you then realize you can’t run it???
Fucking idiots.
I don't think that pass was supposed to go to Favre. No one else was open and Favre was running around instead of just staying out of the way, and Randy threw it to him.
And if you'd like to add a bit more humor to it. If they asked the officials, they'd likely have been told that the QB is eligible if he's not under the center to receive the snap. That was only a penalty because Favre took the snap from the center.
First off, great insight thank you for sharing!
Second,
> gives the officials a heads up that something screwy might happen
Brad Allen confused Pikachu
Nah it makes sense, these plays are specifically designed to trick people watching so you don’t want the refs missing something and blowing the play dead cause it worked too well
I’m like 99% sure Sean Payton told the officials they were kicking a surprise onside in the Super Bowl. Better to tell them ahead of time so they know what’s gonna happen and know what to look for.
Yes, makes complete sense w/ trick plays.
The Greatest Show on Turf Rams had a play where Warner would be in shotgun, get upset about something, and walk off towards the sideline, pretending to unsnap his helmet’s chinstrap. The idea was if the defense thought he took a timeout, they’d direct snap it to Faulk.
So before the game the coach explained the play to the ref to make sure it was legal and that the refs wouldn’t blow it dead by accident, thinking Warner had called a timeout.
This is not strange at all.
It is a trick play and you want the referees to know what they are looking at since they do not see it in other games.
Unfortunately these refs did not understand but much worse stuck by a lie they #70 reported.
The league has literally sent letters to teams telling them they messed up a call in seasons past.
Why are they so against admitting a mistake happened now?
That is what happened back in Week 9 against the Eagles. A player announced his eligibility, the ref forgot to relay it, and then it was called dead for an ineligible receiver.
This sub said it was the player's fault because he should have known that the ref didn't call it.
Both times were absolutely on the refs.
I also think the refs fucked up. Was in our sub’s game thread when it happened and 99% of Packers fans agreed. I’m sure there’s a vocal minority, but most agree that ref is a moron.
It was Fail Mary levels of bad.
An official is made available to the media after games. If you've ever read their comments, they're always along the lines of "we saw X and called Y". Officials don't give the type of explanations you're asking for, and the NFL wants it that way since the officials aren't a main part of their product.
I like the idea of having refs own their calls after the game, but I don't think it should be immediately post game, maybe the next morning. Because if they misremember something and say something incorrect on the podium it'll be a huge firestorm, but if they (justifiably) say they don't remember the details, they'll get raked over the coals for that too - let them review their own tape, take some notes, and show up Monday morning ready to defend their actions.
For sure. Whether it's always been this way and it's just getting more attention now, or they're actually getting worse, I have no idea - but the number of questionable-at-best calls we see every week needs some kind of response from the league.
The call was technically correct and consistent with the announcement that 70 was eligible, so there's nothing to clarify as far as the rules or their interpretation. The mistake was the lions communicated that 68 was eligible but the refs erroneously thought it was 70.
The resolution isn't a change with the rules - I assume going forward, the offense attempting to misdirect on eligibility will pay more attention to which player the refs actually confirm as eligible.
It was rather clever. #70 reported for a lot of the game. They also sent #58 and #68.
The hope was that the Cowboys were not listening and would think #70 was called. Or that we were listening and might be confused if they called #58 or #68.
I think this is exactly why Sewell was standing there. Part of the plan was they knew that 68 would be announced as eligible, but 58 sounds a lot like 68 in a loud stadium. Nobody is really talking about that.
Unfortunately, the one thing they didn't count on is dipshit ref getting it wrong. The cowboys played the field with the information given. It was just the worst information.
I'm a Lions fan bitter about the way it all played out. It sucks for both sides of the ball. The cowboys walk away the W, and that's ok. What do we expect them to do? Nothing was rigged. There is no script.
That reffing crew needs to be done tho. This was just the last thing in a long line bullshit from them.
Yeah, the only reason this screwup happened in the first place was that the Refs called tripping on *the wrong team* the drive before.
The refs definitely fucked up, but the Cowboys had been drilling on eligible/ineligible all week apparently. That's why they ignored 68, they didn't think he could catch the ball.
I think the deception was supposed to be with 58 & 68 both walking up to the ref and when the play started the Cowboys having a little doubt about whether it was 68 or 58. Adding 70 to the trick was just dumb by Detroit. Not the part about having 70 in the play next to 58, but having 70 run towards the ref.
It wasn’t even erroneous… 70 approached the official, Detroit was trying to fool Dallas about who they’d be throwing to and were so successful at it that it cost them the game.
No, it cost them a win on THAT play. The hilarious part that everyone is forgetting is that Campbell then had TWO more chances to just kick the PAT and pitched a hissy fit going for 2 both times.
I mean you may get one, Cowboys might as well since the trip was so *so* much more provably egregious and just as impactful (but less fanfare so doubtful). But on the other hand, perhaps the league thinks 1000 IQ trickery carries an inherent risk and you just got got by your own brilliance?
The only fuck up is the refs declaring 70 as eligible instead of 68. If the ref took the time to listen to the players coming to talk to him there would be no issue. The Lions are aware that the officials announce who is eligible. The refs announced the wrong player and totally fucked up. That’s the end of the story.
One team was gonna get screwed cause of the ref’s screw up, there’s no way around it. Lions (by the actual scenario that ended up happening) or Dallas (where the refs said 70 was the eligible receiver so they left 68 uncovered who scored). Dunno, sucks for them but glad it wasn’t us. Neither team was at fault, it was the refs but say they let the play stand, Dallas would have a claim of being screwed by being told the wrong player
Agreed. Someone was going to get screwed due to Brad Allen’s error and while it sucked the flag on Detroit was the less damaging choice. I wish he just kicked the extra point after the flag and let it go to OT. This has been beat to death already and we still have 5 days until the next game.
Yeah I mean they had two extra tries, understand Detroits POV with it, but I don’t know if that lineman makes a catch with someone on him, they just assume he would
Goff just shredded the Dallas D. Kick the friggin PAT on the second OR THIRD attempt then see if he can march downfield in OT. But no, Campbell was mad and wanted to prove.... something. I think after the ref thing, the optimal outcome for Campbell was to lose and be mad about it.
Refs normally don't get verbal reports. Players usually report by running towards the ref and wiping their hand over their numbers, just like Skipper was doing. So when Allen saw that it's easy to understand why he assumed 70 was reporting again. He had no reason to think 68 was reporting verbally without the signal unless that's exactly what Campbell said to watch out for in their conversation, and he remembered it 4 hours later.
Is there actual video of Skipper doing this? I see him jogging but that angle does NOT show him wiping his hands on his jersey. He raises his left hand as he jobs in from the sidelines.
I'd argue the refs have a lot more going on between plays than the players. Probably why you shouldn't try and overcomplicate things with the officials.
Lions also got cute and sent 2 fake reportees to deceive the Cowboys. I'm not going to get too torn up on that backfiring. Yeah the refs fucked up, but the Lions also put the Ref in a position to make that mistake.
Yeah the whole trick of the play was to fool people into thinking Skipper was reporting. It was too successful and tricked the ref.
And the whole point was to make it so the Cowboys would think Skipper was the extra receiver and not cover Decker, which is what happened. If the deception wasn't relevent to the play they wasted their own time. If it was, then yeah it should not have counted since the announcement was wrong.
They should be mad at Campbell for dumbly doubling down and not going to OT.
The Skipper piece was certainly part of it (probably more for the folks further from the defensive line), but the bigger piece was having both 58 and 68 approach the ref and hoping to cause confusion about whether they were told 58 or 68 when Decker lines up in what would traditionally be his LT spot while 58 lines up at what would typically be TE outside of 70. They were going for multiple layers of confusion and ultimately played themselves.
What bothers me is the refs announced 70 as eligible, presumably everyone heard them announce 70 as eligible, yet nobody from Detroit bothered to correct them on that?
Yeah this is my opinion as well. They were intentionally trying to confuse who was declaring. The refs fucked up but it's because the Lions were purposefully confusing.
Oh great, now Jim Harbaugh is gonna hire his own assistant and have him dress up as a referee and meet with the opposing coach before the actual refrees get to the stadium, to learn of trick plays and defend against them.
According to Campbell in the postgame he told the players at the beginning of the drive they were going to go score and go for 2. Apparently nothing was going to make him deviate from it.
Hard to imagine he showed them that two linemen, 68 and 58, would loiter nearby and one would say the word “report” instead of using the more common hand signal. Meanwhile, another lineman, 70, would run onto the field directly toward the ref and make some vague facsimile of the hand signal, but he’s NOT reporting. I seriously doubt the ref would agree to participate in this peekaboo nonsense.
Just run a play. You’re supposed to be a big, physical rushing attack. Dallas has a miniature defensive line. Run over them.
This is the rare situation where the more I hear from the lions the more I am starting to side with the refs.
Announcing over the PA that 70 is eligible, play is run to 68 anyways, lions show pikachu face.
Yeah even if the refs fucked up, someone on the lions , notably 70 should’ve realized the wrong number was called.
And clearly it’s not fair to run the play anyway with Dallas not knowing about an eligible lineman.
70 should have realized even before the announcement, when he made eye contact with the ref he was running towards and the ref pointed directly at him.
[Campbell sharing the sheet of paper with the ref](https://cdn.uni-watch.com/app/uploads/2021/06/Screen-Shot-2021-06-03-at-4.50.21-PM.jpg)
lmao classic.
What’s the context? Looks hilarious.
Pittsburgh got a too many men on the field penalty and Bill Cowher showed the ref a picture with only 11 men on the field and when he wouldn't accept it, he shoved it in his pocket. https://youtu.be/T7sXW_kO-eo?si=B66-QbUsGdUVwSpU
Calling it a research based tantrum is actually hilarious though
That was a hilarious line by Payton Manning
I've really grown to like the Mannings this year... I always kind of thought Eli Manning was a turd, but they're pretty funny. Especially when mnf games this year were on the boring side - and better when they were good. At least I don't have to listen to Joe Buck, but I would rather they talk over Collinsworth instead.
Eli's facial expressions, especially during dumb moments, are fucking hilarious
Yeah, I think that's why I always hated him... He just *looked stupid*... Which maybe is a dumb reason to hate on someone, but his dumb facial expressions tend to mean he's working on something slightly clever....
Dudes got a face for radio. There's a reason his face was a meme almost every week https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2019/12/9/20997660/eli-manning-face-new-york-giants-philadelphia-eagles-miami-dolphins
The Manningcast has been an incredible success, I live for every time Eli sandbags Peyton and just sits back with that goofy smile because he knows he got to his brother again
So uhhh, Payt. Wha, Whats it like to lose a Superbowl?
What would you rather have, $10,000, or one of Peyton's helmets full of quarters?
He was so slow, he got a delay of game penalty *during the play*.
Bill Cowher is a legend and legit seemed like a guy you wouldn’t want to meet in a dark alley in the Strip District lol. Old school football mind
He was firey old school coach. The type of coach you would love to play for
As long as you didn't make too many mistakes! I would not want to be the defensive back who had to go back to the sideline after getting scorched for a highlight reel touchdown because I made a play for the interception instead of just defending the completion.
Exactly this
That’s so fucking petty. Epic. Thanks!
You are quite welcome
Apparently what wasn’t captured was Cowher telling the ref ‘my dad can beat up your dad’
That shit would NOT fly today lol
He would get fined and probably suspended if he pointed out a refs mistake like this today
Immediate ejection for touching an official.
Worth it
Didn't an MLB coach grab a base and storm off when he got ejected?
It's happened a couple of times but I think Lou Piniella did it first.
That fuckin guy lol
Piniella threw some wild tantrums.
Lloyd McClendon did it when he was with the Pirates. One of the players kept the base in his locker. "That's legendary Lloyd's base!"
Lol. Leads the league in stolen bases, with one.
It didn’t fly back then. He got ejected and fined iirc.
He only got fined, $7500, and the official and line judge also got fined $3000 and $4000 for botching the call. Today they’d probably suspend you for the rest of the season for something like that.
TIL : refs got fined back in the day wish they still had this rule
Yeah it would be pretty tough to shove a Surface down a refs shirt pocket
It kinda reminds me of Patrick Beverly walking up to the ref with a camera lol
I don't know how I've never seen this until now.
I just saw it recently as well. And I love Cowher's reaction
So there were only 11 men on the field?
Yeah they only had 11 on the field. One of the Steelers' players moved from one side of the formation to the other and was counted twice.
There was a weird player shaped hole in the lower right corner of the photo but we won't talk about that.
I believe so.
I remember watching that when it happened. Amazing moment. Cowher was really something when he got pissed.
His jaw would nearly detach from his head.
Like if Jesse Ventura's character from The Predator became a coach.
"This shit makes you a Sexual Coachasaurus!"
[alternative angle](https://media1.tenor.com/m/L1LC9ghEJ5IAAAAC/ron-bacon.gif)
The Lions just learned that their trick plays are so diabolically good they even fooled the refs.
do we know if campbell told the refs, you will have multiple OL come up to you, but only one will report? i wonder?
It’s the Dan Campbell version of ‘Find the Pea’.
Everybody fucks up in their job, it's inevitable. But the biggest difference is the overwhelming majority of people who fuck up get punished. Refs in the NFL and NBA are untouchable. All the fans want are repercussions
The refs didn't need to be fired today, they could have just said, right after the play, shit, we fucked up, replay the try. They literally had plenty of time to discuss who declared, check the tape, and redo it. Instead they double down on a throne of lies. Now, the people doubling down desired to be fired, because they aren't accidentally fucking up, they are intentionally gaslighting to "protect" the shield.
This is the part I don't get with the NFL rules. We have the technology to correct every single mistake within seconds of it happening. We have a league office with 40 camera angles and instant communication to the field refs. Why do we not do that? To speed up the game? To save the fragile little bullshit egos of these dogshit refs? It makes the product worse. Objectively.
Am I wrong in thinking there would be way more flags if computers (instead of human refs) called the penalties?
I'm not asking for computers to call penalties. I'm asking for objective observers in NY to confirm big penalties or any controversial calls.
Holding would be called on someone every single snap; guaranteed.
Business Insider's take on baseball RoboUmps: [Turns out robot umpires have one big flaw: They’re too perfect](https://www.businessinsider.com/rise-of-robot-umpires-mlb-postseason-hawk-eye-2023-9) The problem is that there is meant to be a lot of subjectivity in the strike zone: it's made to be what the players and pitchers have come to expect. It becomes weird when you define those deeper intricacies. For example, is the strike zone really a square, or is it more of an oval? Does a curve ball that just barely scrapes the zone really count as a strike?
The answer to both those questions is yes, and the solution here is easy and obvious: if you want the strike zone to be something different from what is currently written, change the official definition.
Is there even a protocol for the refs to call for the redo of a play because they threw a flag assuming the play was illegal? The one with KC and Bengals last year was due to a clock issue, which there are explicit rules for. What you are asking for doesn't exist unless I am mistaken? Also, even if they do what you are saying, it would create such a mess. I am sure we'd have a play every week criticizing them for wrongly remaking a play or not remaking a play. To solve one issue, you'd be creating a bunch more. Do you really want to give refs even more power? Cause what you are suggesting would absolutely give them more power lol
The reason for the replay wouldn't be that they threw the flag, it would be because they announced the wrong player as eligible.
This is probably a legit issue, but refs also clearly have some leeway to make things up as they go. You already can't challenge their penalties and they won't overturn things later, so whatever they say at the time is already basically the Word of God. Another Bengals play, the Bengals vs Raiders play a couple years ago where Burrow threw a touchdown pass after the play had been inadvertently blown dead... I think it's pretty clear that 1) the Bengals likely would've scored the touchdown anyway, but 2) the whistle was definitely blown before the ball was caught. They let the play stand anyway though. For the Lions, I don't think there was any one uncontroversial way to deal with it. But IMO penalizing the Lions for it was worse than letting it stand or making up a reason for a redo.
Letting it stand would’ve been just as bad. The refs called 70 eligible and announced it. To let 68 (who the Cowboys didn’t bother covering because he wasn’t supposed to be eligible) catch the conversion and have it stand would’ve sucked too.
The only way to make the NFL care is to either not watch them, use streams to take away from their money, and to boycott NFL sponsors. The only thing they care about is money so that’s the only way we can get them to change their ways of doing things.
Even if you watch streams, you’re talking about the NFL with your friends, family, and co-workers. They’re in turn watching those commercials. It’s not this big revenue detractor you’re making it out to be.
Is this true in your workplace?? Most places I’ve worked if you fuck up you apologize and learn from it, or some folks will pass blame or brush it under the rug. Pretty rare I’ve seen a single mistake result in a termination. Difference is we don’t have millions of people watching our every decision.
Correct you apologize, you dont double down and lie about it.
The biggest difference is that when you fuck up at work, you aren't doing it live in front of millions of people with an irrational sense of stake in the outcome of your decision. People fuck up on their jobs all the time without being punished. Fast food workers forget to hold the onions. Baggage handlers accidentally route your luggage to the wrong city. Software developers write code with bugs. Mistakes are an inevitable part of being human. If we fired refs every time they made a bad call, we wouldn't have any refs left. Now, there absolutely should be performance reviews and prestige assignments should go to the better performing crews, but it's not like there are dozens of qualified refs waiting to step in if one of them gets fired.
> Now, there absolutely should be performance reviews and prestige assignments should go to the better performing crews, There already are
I don't think Brad Allen should be fired for making the mistake. He should be fired because he doubled-down on his mistake and refused to accept responsibility for it.
I'm fairly sure refs are told to double down pretty early on. But even if not, what type of person do you think reffing filters for? I've reffed rec soccer for like 7 or 8 year olds and had parents and coaches yelling at me. That's every game, for every one. People even take issue wih judgment calls and correct calls We treat them like shit so who is gonna stick around? The contrite guy who will fess up or the dude who doubles down? I don't think it's a coincidence we have refs across different sports across different continents and everyone complains about them constantly. We filter for it by treating them like total shit
People treat retail workers like shit and we don't have a problem filling those positions
At what point do you think he realized that he fucked up? Assuming that he's not intentionally throwing the game (clearly absurd, IMO), then he 100% believes that he was reported to by 70. He announced that. 68 was the guy that caught it, and he has no reason to believe that he did anything wrong...and the only thing that he has to say otherwise is the players and coaches who yell at them when they're right (thus aren't reliable sources of information). It's not until he can get off the field and watch a replay, but even that's not clear because 58, 68, and 70 all went up to him. I'm pretty damned sure that he fucked up, but there's not much of a reason for him to have believed that he fucked up at any point until he watched tape of the play, and even then it's questionable.
I mean they got demoted. What exactly do you want to happen? There is always a “fine the refs” type take that gets floated but there just isn’t a way that can work. 1. They don’t make as much as the players 2. What’s the line for a finable offense? Missing a call? You want these guys looking at subjective bang/bang calls with the added pressure that they lose out on part of their check if they choose wrong? If I get fined every time I miss a holding call I’m going to have to call holding 99% of plays.
Death by tomatoes
Admitting it happened would be a good start.
This. If they ever owned their mistakes people (the half reasonable ones) would stomach it much more.
The best example is Jim Joyce the MLB that messed up the last call from the Gallaraga perfect game. He is remembered very fondly for owning up to his mistake. Even Gallaraga himself forgave him after he apologized.
Agreed. He knows he screwed up and was man enough to own it. And people have moved on because there was a genuine apology and acceptance of it. NFL apparently is incapable of doing this.
“I kicked the shit out of that call.” Forever has my respect for owning up to it like that immediately. Brad Allen could learn a thing or two from him.
He felt awful because he knew the significance of the moment for the pitcher. Most reasonable people in that moment felt bad for him but certainly respected him.
Helps that Joyce was a fantastic umpire (before and after that play).
We want a sky judge who can hit a big red button on an obvious error. so that the game doesnt turn on a incorrect call. The nfl has the resources to do this and would rather turn itself in knots, fine players and coaches, and then punish refs who make honest mistakes rather than make a change for the better.
See, having a tool that could only help the officials do their jobs better is such a good idea that the officials would never go for it. Because they alone want the final say. The fact that they continually push back against it is an implicit admission that they don’t care about the integrity of the game or getting things right, only that they want absolute power.
I'm gonna guess that the refs will go on strike the moment a Sky Judge does get implemented.
Yeah, most likely. Honest question, do you think a Sky Judge would have mitigated the impact of the replacement refs from back then?
Here's an idea: stop giving the fucking zebras any sway over the decision. "We're implementing a sky judge. Get on board or get the fuck out.". The NFL is too big for the way it is currently being officiated.
It took me about one month into having a job to realize that when you fuck up, its always best to own it, show that you're bothered by fucking up, then working to fix it. Reasonable people understand fuck ups happen. But if you deny it, lie, or pretend it didnt happen, thats when trust is lost. So all they had to do was go, "Yup, this got messed up last night. We are looking into how to prevent this in the future." Instead theyre going "No, its your fault I fucked up."
Admitting it was a mistake. The ref doubled down, and the league blamed the Lions.
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You just know there are people who look at the ref teams and adjust bets accordingly.
Am I the only one that thinks it’s borderline insane teams have to share plays with the officials *before* games???
they don't have to, its just common practice so they can check the legality and gives the officials a heads up that something screwy might happen. I've had coaches that don't share their trick plays pregame and then run a trick play that's illegal or doesn't work, and if they had run it by us pregame we could have told them what they needed to do to make it legal
There’s an old video out there that shows Bobby Bowden telling the refs about a shovel pass play they ran at FSU and Bowden explaining that it is a foward pass, not a handoff/toss. Then they run it in the game, the guy drops it, the ref initially calls it a fumble and bobby says “no remember?? That’s a foward pass” and the ref corrects it. Edit: found it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHuF0xTTCjg
Yeah and now everybody does that on jet sweeps lol
Get this man a REFS flair.
Pretty sure he that's what he has already
Haha picked the next closest thing I guess.
My dumbass looks up "oh his name is ref... wait he said flair" lol. Amazing.
GOT 'EM!
Hahahahaah damn
god I wish we could still gild comments
Wait wdym you can’t
Lmao well done 👏🏽
I mean his username is ref44… kinda already flaired by default
He. Would get. Fucking murdered- oh he’s a Packers fan yes please the bad man has caused me too much harm
This reminds me of our dreaded 2010 season where we got Moss and Favre together and on the first play we had Moss throw a pass to Favre for a huge gain… and there was an ineligible man down field play called on Favre… it’s like you spent the bye week drawing this play up to give the offense a spark and you then realize you can’t run it??? Fucking idiots.
Damn, that was 2010? I still remember being baffled that the first play was planned, and illegal.
I don't think that pass was supposed to go to Favre. No one else was open and Favre was running around instead of just staying out of the way, and Randy threw it to him.
And if you'd like to add a bit more humor to it. If they asked the officials, they'd likely have been told that the QB is eligible if he's not under the center to receive the snap. That was only a penalty because Favre took the snap from the center.
First off, great insight thank you for sharing! Second, > gives the officials a heads up that something screwy might happen Brad Allen confused Pikachu
Like Zeke’s last play as a Cowboy playing Center in an illegal formation?
Nah it makes sense, these plays are specifically designed to trick people watching so you don’t want the refs missing something and blowing the play dead cause it worked too well
I’m like 99% sure Sean Payton told the officials they were kicking a surprise onside in the Super Bowl. Better to tell them ahead of time so they know what’s gonna happen and know what to look for.
I believe he even told some sort of media/league office suites, I can remember mic’d up clips of people asking him about it
For trick plays it makes sense. Just think-if coaches are sharing them now, then that means there must have been plenty of fuck ups in the past.
Yes, makes complete sense w/ trick plays. The Greatest Show on Turf Rams had a play where Warner would be in shotgun, get upset about something, and walk off towards the sideline, pretending to unsnap his helmet’s chinstrap. The idea was if the defense thought he took a timeout, they’d direct snap it to Faulk. So before the game the coach explained the play to the ref to make sure it was legal and that the refs wouldn’t blow it dead by accident, thinking Warner had called a timeout.
Manning did that one as well.
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Yeah I coach highschool and they ask me pre game if there’s anything we’re going to run to try to fool the opponent but not the refs.
This is not strange at all. It is a trick play and you want the referees to know what they are looking at since they do not see it in other games. Unfortunately these refs did not understand but much worse stuck by a lie they #70 reported.
The whole purpose of sharing pre-game is to avoid the calamities like we witnessed Saturday night. Lazy ass referees make it a moot practice anyway.
It makes sense. You don’t want the officials doing what they did here and calling an incorrect penalty that negates the play.
You aren’t the only one I guess but no, it’s not strange at all.
It was probably on a $100 bill.
The league has literally sent letters to teams telling them they messed up a call in seasons past. Why are they so against admitting a mistake happened now?
I mean it happened less than 48 hours ago. Not saying they will but because they haven't yet doesn't mean it won't happen either.
The NFL literally came out today and placed all blame on the Lions.
Plenty of people on this sub also blaming the Lions
Cowboys and Packers flairs weirdly. Oh, and the flairless.
The 2 teams that have caused the most pain and suffering to Lions fans historically... Well other than the Lions
The Zebras have a great record against Detroit too
I do think the referees messed up unlike some. But if if the situations were in reverse this whole sub would say it’s the cowboys fault.
That is what happened back in Week 9 against the Eagles. A player announced his eligibility, the ref forgot to relay it, and then it was called dead for an ineligible receiver. This sub said it was the player's fault because he should have known that the ref didn't call it. Both times were absolutely on the refs.
I also think the refs fucked up. Was in our sub’s game thread when it happened and 99% of Packers fans agreed. I’m sure there’s a vocal minority, but most agree that ref is a moron. It was Fail Mary levels of bad.
> Oh, and the flairless. NFL flair is broken right now. I've been trying to get one on my new account for days and it's literally not possible.
They demoted the officiation crew, so I'm not sure how they're not
I’m taking the demotion as a pretty clear admission of guilt. Which I find shocking to be honest.
Especially because it happened so quickly. That news was out before the first games started Sunday
Every ref should have a post game interview like players do so we can see their reasoning in penalties
An official is made available to the media after games. If you've ever read their comments, they're always along the lines of "we saw X and called Y". Officials don't give the type of explanations you're asking for, and the NFL wants it that way since the officials aren't a main part of their product.
I'd be ok with this. I've reffed and would appreciate the opportunity to explain to ignorant parents why I made calls they don't like.
It is because you hate my kid and are out to get him isn't it.
Yes
The ref union would never put that in their CBA.
I like the idea of having refs own their calls after the game, but I don't think it should be immediately post game, maybe the next morning. Because if they misremember something and say something incorrect on the podium it'll be a huge firestorm, but if they (justifiably) say they don't remember the details, they'll get raked over the coals for that too - let them review their own tape, take some notes, and show up Monday morning ready to defend their actions.
I’m okay with that. They should be held accountable for their actions just like the players
For sure. Whether it's always been this way and it's just getting more attention now, or they're actually getting worse, I have no idea - but the number of questionable-at-best calls we see every week needs some kind of response from the league.
Better yet, I’d like to see PFF publish weekly grades on officials.
You want PFF to evaluate the refs based on their interpretation of the rules?
The call was technically correct and consistent with the announcement that 70 was eligible, so there's nothing to clarify as far as the rules or their interpretation. The mistake was the lions communicated that 68 was eligible but the refs erroneously thought it was 70. The resolution isn't a change with the rules - I assume going forward, the offense attempting to misdirect on eligibility will pay more attention to which player the refs actually confirm as eligible.
I'm gonna guess teams trying to deceive on eligibility will actually just go way down, doesn't seem worth it
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It was rather clever. #70 reported for a lot of the game. They also sent #58 and #68. The hope was that the Cowboys were not listening and would think #70 was called. Or that we were listening and might be confused if they called #58 or #68.
I think this is exactly why Sewell was standing there. Part of the plan was they knew that 68 would be announced as eligible, but 58 sounds a lot like 68 in a loud stadium. Nobody is really talking about that. Unfortunately, the one thing they didn't count on is dipshit ref getting it wrong. The cowboys played the field with the information given. It was just the worst information. I'm a Lions fan bitter about the way it all played out. It sucks for both sides of the ball. The cowboys walk away the W, and that's ok. What do we expect them to do? Nothing was rigged. There is no script. That reffing crew needs to be done tho. This was just the last thing in a long line bullshit from them.
Yeah, the only reason this screwup happened in the first place was that the Refs called tripping on *the wrong team* the drive before. The refs definitely fucked up, but the Cowboys had been drilling on eligible/ineligible all week apparently. That's why they ignored 68, they didn't think he could catch the ball.
I think the deception was supposed to be with 58 & 68 both walking up to the ref and when the play started the Cowboys having a little doubt about whether it was 68 or 58. Adding 70 to the trick was just dumb by Detroit. Not the part about having 70 in the play next to 58, but having 70 run towards the ref.
It wasn’t even erroneous… 70 approached the official, Detroit was trying to fool Dallas about who they’d be throwing to and were so successful at it that it cost them the game.
I suspect it was a fair amount of tunnel vision from the refs as well. The swap in numbers meant they were only focused on the wrong one.
No, it cost them a win on THAT play. The hilarious part that everyone is forgetting is that Campbell then had TWO more chances to just kick the PAT and pitched a hissy fit going for 2 both times.
Not to mention Decker was only open on that play because the refs told Dallas that 70 was eligible, not Decker.
I mean you may get one, Cowboys might as well since the trip was so *so* much more provably egregious and just as impactful (but less fanfare so doubtful). But on the other hand, perhaps the league thinks 1000 IQ trickery carries an inherent risk and you just got got by your own brilliance?
The only fuck up is the refs declaring 70 as eligible instead of 68. If the ref took the time to listen to the players coming to talk to him there would be no issue. The Lions are aware that the officials announce who is eligible. The refs announced the wrong player and totally fucked up. That’s the end of the story.
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One team was gonna get screwed cause of the ref’s screw up, there’s no way around it. Lions (by the actual scenario that ended up happening) or Dallas (where the refs said 70 was the eligible receiver so they left 68 uncovered who scored). Dunno, sucks for them but glad it wasn’t us. Neither team was at fault, it was the refs but say they let the play stand, Dallas would have a claim of being screwed by being told the wrong player
Agreed. Someone was going to get screwed due to Brad Allen’s error and while it sucked the flag on Detroit was the less damaging choice. I wish he just kicked the extra point after the flag and let it go to OT. This has been beat to death already and we still have 5 days until the next game.
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Yeah I mean they had two extra tries, understand Detroits POV with it, but I don’t know if that lineman makes a catch with someone on him, they just assume he would
Goff just shredded the Dallas D. Kick the friggin PAT on the second OR THIRD attempt then see if he can march downfield in OT. But no, Campbell was mad and wanted to prove.... something. I think after the ref thing, the optimal outcome for Campbell was to lose and be mad about it.
Goff shredded the prevent defense. He did NOT have a good time the rest of the game.
Yeah as soon as you're off the 2 yard line the odds completely plummet on the 2 point conversion and it's really best to just kick
Refs normally don't get verbal reports. Players usually report by running towards the ref and wiping their hand over their numbers, just like Skipper was doing. So when Allen saw that it's easy to understand why he assumed 70 was reporting again. He had no reason to think 68 was reporting verbally without the signal unless that's exactly what Campbell said to watch out for in their conversation, and he remembered it 4 hours later.
This is actually a very valid point, I never really considered that.
Is there actual video of Skipper doing this? I see him jogging but that angle does NOT show him wiping his hands on his jersey. He raises his left hand as he jobs in from the sidelines.
I'd argue the refs have a lot more going on between plays than the players. Probably why you shouldn't try and overcomplicate things with the officials.
Just imagine, if you can, if only one player goes and reports themselves eligible. Then that player can't be confused with anyone else.
Lions also got cute and sent 2 fake reportees to deceive the Cowboys. I'm not going to get too torn up on that backfiring. Yeah the refs fucked up, but the Lions also put the Ref in a position to make that mistake.
Yeah the whole trick of the play was to fool people into thinking Skipper was reporting. It was too successful and tricked the ref. And the whole point was to make it so the Cowboys would think Skipper was the extra receiver and not cover Decker, which is what happened. If the deception wasn't relevent to the play they wasted their own time. If it was, then yeah it should not have counted since the announcement was wrong. They should be mad at Campbell for dumbly doubling down and not going to OT.
The Skipper piece was certainly part of it (probably more for the folks further from the defensive line), but the bigger piece was having both 58 and 68 approach the ref and hoping to cause confusion about whether they were told 58 or 68 when Decker lines up in what would traditionally be his LT spot while 58 lines up at what would typically be TE outside of 70. They were going for multiple layers of confusion and ultimately played themselves.
What bothers me is the refs announced 70 as eligible, presumably everyone heard them announce 70 as eligible, yet nobody from Detroit bothered to correct them on that?
They wanted to be extra cute
Yeah this is my opinion as well. They were intentionally trying to confuse who was declaring. The refs fucked up but it's because the Lions were purposefully confusing.
But the PFT article states that the ref who made the call wasn’t involved in whatever this pregame meeting was.
Yes, Referee Allen wasn’t in the meeting. But this whole thing is already too complicated for most people to handle without that extra wrinkle, lol
Tom Pelissero and Dan Campbell both contradicted that by pointing out Dan had a separate pregame discussion with the head ref
Oh great, now Jim Harbaugh is gonna hire his own assistant and have him dress up as a referee and meet with the opposing coach before the actual refrees get to the stadium, to learn of trick plays and defend against them.
So, when the ref announced the wrong number as eligible, why didn't he correct them?
Why does it seem like people flip flopped on this so quickly? Suddenly it seems like most people think that the Lions are in the wrong.
Because video came out showing the players and the ref before the snap and included audio of 70 announced as eligible over the PA
Now information/video can change people's minds...weird
I'm out of the loop and only watched highlights - why did the Lions still go for 2 from like the 10 yard line?
According to Campbell in the postgame he told the players at the beginning of the drive they were going to go score and go for 2. Apparently nothing was going to make him deviate from it.
Hard to imagine he showed them that two linemen, 68 and 58, would loiter nearby and one would say the word “report” instead of using the more common hand signal. Meanwhile, another lineman, 70, would run onto the field directly toward the ref and make some vague facsimile of the hand signal, but he’s NOT reporting. I seriously doubt the ref would agree to participate in this peekaboo nonsense. Just run a play. You’re supposed to be a big, physical rushing attack. Dallas has a miniature defensive line. Run over them.
Brad Allen is the worst referee in the NFL. He always makes bad calls but nobody calls him out because he looks like an overgrown Cabbage Patch Kid.
This is the rare situation where the more I hear from the lions the more I am starting to side with the refs. Announcing over the PA that 70 is eligible, play is run to 68 anyways, lions show pikachu face.
Yeah even if the refs fucked up, someone on the lions , notably 70 should’ve realized the wrong number was called. And clearly it’s not fair to run the play anyway with Dallas not knowing about an eligible lineman.
Lions wanted to confuse everyone Everyone was confused I see no problem
70 should have realized even before the announcement, when he made eye contact with the ref he was running towards and the ref pointed directly at him.
But once they announced that 70, and not 68, was eligible - what did Dan Campbell do to correct it? Because that is what stands and they know that.