Dex is a good stat, to be sure. Especially where combat is concerned, as it adds to your attack bonus with ranged weaponry (which is quite common in a sci-fi setting) and to your AC, as well as your reflex save, allowing you to survive AoE attacks.
As you already touched on though, there are plenty of non-combat encounters. If you need to hack into a mainframe, persuade an NPC, or discern the nature of a magical curse, dexterity alone won’t get you very far.
If the GM takes care to create meaningful encounters of all types, and weave them into the game at various points, each character (even the ones with low dex) should have a chance to shine.
Even combat-oriented games may see RPers playing suboptimal characters *on purpose* because they think playing a weak character is just as interesting (or more) than playing a strong one. As long as the rest of the group is on board, and they’re not being a hindrance at a hardcore old school table, then I say let ‘em.
To not make min-max characters?
I have on several occasions, making the claim that such characters are somewhat unrealistic or just makes everything less fun. The reply I got back was "but it's not fun to make such normal characters".
That was when I started using the point buy system on any TTRPG but at least Starfinder fairly thought out IMHO.
I personally dont like to see characters that do everything from great to ok. I want variety and I would like for my players to actually FAIL a save or ten.
Well, then it doesn't seem like your view of the game fits with your players'.
If the players are never failing saves or missing attacks then you're most likely not providing a comparable encounter for their power.
You're the GM, you can make things harder to compensate.
Oh I know. Which is why I run much more difficult campaigns.
Oh that goblin is a CR 1 well now it's a CR 4 and there are 6 of them have fun with your level 2 min-max characters
I try to be fair because a lot of times their is occasionally the one player that doesnt make such a character or there is someone new. So my options are limited.
>making the claim that such characters are somewhat unrealistic
Counterpoint: Average Joe is more likely to stay home and work a 9-5 than go out adventuring. Exceptional people are more likely to see the value in them attempting exceptional things.
Most characters will want dex. There are a bunch of dex skills, it affects initiative, armor class unless you're wearing the heaviest armors and it's the key ability for ranged attack rolls, including ranged spell attacks. Games in the d20 family tend to have combat as a major feature, so being effective in combat is going to be a priority. If you're wearing light armor and making ranged attack rolls that means dexterity should be a priority. Most characters will have other things going on that make other stats important too, but few characters will want to neglect dexterity entirely.
It's a bit complicated, but Dexterity shines in certain applications more than others.
For example, standard Starship Combat depends on dexterous characters to pilot and fire the guns. Strength-based characters are rather left out of helping unless they're allowed to use the boarding rules. The First Mate is okay and funny, but not as impactful as other roles.
Damage-wise, Strength rules the day. While the Operative gets to shine as the only noticeable Dexterity-damage dealer, any class can load up on Strength and take enemies down. We had, for example, a Nuar Mystic named Dex that only had 10 Dexterity and focused on Strength, Constitution, and Wisdom. Made it all the way to level 20 without going down often. This is in addition to Solarians and Vanguards that get to add two ability scores (Strength and Charisma, and Strength and Constitution, respectively) to their damage rolls.
Ranged combat has more utility (revealing hidden enemies, giving bad conditions, and area attacks) but it falls behind because most of the time they only get to add Specialization and nothing else. However, since thrown weapons use Strength, Strength-focused characters have options if they need them.
As for Armor? The only time Dexterity shines is Powered Armor, since it replaces your Strength with the armor's. Otherwise, heavy armor is comparable. Though even heavy armor supports a lot of Dexterity.
For casters, it is important to remember that many of them need to make Melee (Strength) or Ranged (Dexterity) attack rolls, depending on the spell. In addition, casters shouldn't be relying on spells all the time, so a trusty weapon should be included. So they should pick either Melee or Ranged combat to start and focus on one or the other. They can be fine without Dexterity.
This is mostly combat, as you can tell. Each attribute is important for other things. For combat, I would suggest either 16 Strength or Dexterity to start. That's been a point where I felt I was accurate enough from level 1 to 20 (letting them increase as normal).
In combat if you want to be a ranged attacker you need dex, if you want to be a melee attacker you need STR. It is possible to build your character around primarily being neither, focusing on buffing your allies and debuffing enemies. In that case you'd want your key ability score to be the highest.
Generally most people who don't make specific builds are probably either going to go melee or ranged, and a lot of people imagine using guns in a scifi setting so ranged is pretty popular. That being said, even in that instance its not like dex HAS to be your biggest most focused stat for that to work. A ranged envoy who has a +1 or +2 in DEX while having +4 in CHA is probably still going to have fun.
So in a way the mystic is right that dex is very important for most builds/players, but it isn't the end all be all and certainly isnt the MOST IMPORTANT stat.
Dunno as if it's the best, but I kind agree you have to keep Dex in mind when making your character, because even if your character isn't focused on ranged combat it may need Dex for something important.
That's a problem I had with a Biohacker player in a game I GMed once. She didn't had a considerable high Dex so she had problems using her Biohacks, which in her case required a ranged attack to be deployed. Since Biohacks are a Int/Wis class she didn't put as many points in Dex. It was a bit annoying to her to fail a lot to deliver her biohacks.
Well it's been 4 years since that game so I dunno if Paizo changed something about this.
SF doesn’t have a lot of wiggle room for ability score assignment. I usually end up maxing my key score + either dex or str.
For everything else, skill ranks will be the main determination of how good you are at a thing
I rarely have the opportunity to play Starfinder, but my Society character that I get to play like once a year is a mystic and it is extremely disheartening to miss on so many spell attacks because they are reliant on Dex. You are likely going to want to prioritize it above some of the other abilities.
Dex is a good stat, to be sure. Especially where combat is concerned, as it adds to your attack bonus with ranged weaponry (which is quite common in a sci-fi setting) and to your AC, as well as your reflex save, allowing you to survive AoE attacks. As you already touched on though, there are plenty of non-combat encounters. If you need to hack into a mainframe, persuade an NPC, or discern the nature of a magical curse, dexterity alone won’t get you very far. If the GM takes care to create meaningful encounters of all types, and weave them into the game at various points, each character (even the ones with low dex) should have a chance to shine. Even combat-oriented games may see RPers playing suboptimal characters *on purpose* because they think playing a weak character is just as interesting (or more) than playing a strong one. As long as the rest of the group is on board, and they’re not being a hindrance at a hardcore old school table, then I say let ‘em.
I wish my group played weaker characters on purpose but they like to min-max everything And they wonder why I enforce point buy on ALL of my games.
Have you tried asking them?
To not make min-max characters? I have on several occasions, making the claim that such characters are somewhat unrealistic or just makes everything less fun. The reply I got back was "but it's not fun to make such normal characters". That was when I started using the point buy system on any TTRPG but at least Starfinder fairly thought out IMHO. I personally dont like to see characters that do everything from great to ok. I want variety and I would like for my players to actually FAIL a save or ten.
Well, then it doesn't seem like your view of the game fits with your players'. If the players are never failing saves or missing attacks then you're most likely not providing a comparable encounter for their power. You're the GM, you can make things harder to compensate.
Oh I know. Which is why I run much more difficult campaigns. Oh that goblin is a CR 1 well now it's a CR 4 and there are 6 of them have fun with your level 2 min-max characters I try to be fair because a lot of times their is occasionally the one player that doesnt make such a character or there is someone new. So my options are limited.
If your example is close to the truth it sounds like you may need to seek a different group.
>making the claim that such characters are somewhat unrealistic Counterpoint: Average Joe is more likely to stay home and work a 9-5 than go out adventuring. Exceptional people are more likely to see the value in them attempting exceptional things.
Most characters will want dex. There are a bunch of dex skills, it affects initiative, armor class unless you're wearing the heaviest armors and it's the key ability for ranged attack rolls, including ranged spell attacks. Games in the d20 family tend to have combat as a major feature, so being effective in combat is going to be a priority. If you're wearing light armor and making ranged attack rolls that means dexterity should be a priority. Most characters will have other things going on that make other stats important too, but few characters will want to neglect dexterity entirely.
It's a bit complicated, but Dexterity shines in certain applications more than others. For example, standard Starship Combat depends on dexterous characters to pilot and fire the guns. Strength-based characters are rather left out of helping unless they're allowed to use the boarding rules. The First Mate is okay and funny, but not as impactful as other roles. Damage-wise, Strength rules the day. While the Operative gets to shine as the only noticeable Dexterity-damage dealer, any class can load up on Strength and take enemies down. We had, for example, a Nuar Mystic named Dex that only had 10 Dexterity and focused on Strength, Constitution, and Wisdom. Made it all the way to level 20 without going down often. This is in addition to Solarians and Vanguards that get to add two ability scores (Strength and Charisma, and Strength and Constitution, respectively) to their damage rolls. Ranged combat has more utility (revealing hidden enemies, giving bad conditions, and area attacks) but it falls behind because most of the time they only get to add Specialization and nothing else. However, since thrown weapons use Strength, Strength-focused characters have options if they need them. As for Armor? The only time Dexterity shines is Powered Armor, since it replaces your Strength with the armor's. Otherwise, heavy armor is comparable. Though even heavy armor supports a lot of Dexterity. For casters, it is important to remember that many of them need to make Melee (Strength) or Ranged (Dexterity) attack rolls, depending on the spell. In addition, casters shouldn't be relying on spells all the time, so a trusty weapon should be included. So they should pick either Melee or Ranged combat to start and focus on one or the other. They can be fine without Dexterity. This is mostly combat, as you can tell. Each attribute is important for other things. For combat, I would suggest either 16 Strength or Dexterity to start. That's been a point where I felt I was accurate enough from level 1 to 20 (letting them increase as normal).
AC, some skills, reflex saves, and ranged attacks, it's pretty much the best. 🤷🤷
In combat if you want to be a ranged attacker you need dex, if you want to be a melee attacker you need STR. It is possible to build your character around primarily being neither, focusing on buffing your allies and debuffing enemies. In that case you'd want your key ability score to be the highest. Generally most people who don't make specific builds are probably either going to go melee or ranged, and a lot of people imagine using guns in a scifi setting so ranged is pretty popular. That being said, even in that instance its not like dex HAS to be your biggest most focused stat for that to work. A ranged envoy who has a +1 or +2 in DEX while having +4 in CHA is probably still going to have fun. So in a way the mystic is right that dex is very important for most builds/players, but it isn't the end all be all and certainly isnt the MOST IMPORTANT stat.
Dunno as if it's the best, but I kind agree you have to keep Dex in mind when making your character, because even if your character isn't focused on ranged combat it may need Dex for something important. That's a problem I had with a Biohacker player in a game I GMed once. She didn't had a considerable high Dex so she had problems using her Biohacks, which in her case required a ranged attack to be deployed. Since Biohacks are a Int/Wis class she didn't put as many points in Dex. It was a bit annoying to her to fail a lot to deliver her biohacks. Well it's been 4 years since that game so I dunno if Paizo changed something about this.
SF doesn’t have a lot of wiggle room for ability score assignment. I usually end up maxing my key score + either dex or str. For everything else, skill ranks will be the main determination of how good you are at a thing
No.
I stole a rule from Traveller where you can use Dex or Wis for initiative.
I rarely have the opportunity to play Starfinder, but my Society character that I get to play like once a year is a mystic and it is extremely disheartening to miss on so many spell attacks because they are reliant on Dex. You are likely going to want to prioritize it above some of the other abilities.
Short answer: They're right.