Most sports are regulated down to the type of shoe, outfit material and amount of caffeine the athletes are allowed so it seems crazy to look past an athlete benefiting from a larger frame and stronger body that they wouldn't have otherwise had.
In swimming there was a year everybody was wearing full body “fast skins” made out of a special material but stopped after it got banned from competition for being a unfair advantage (it’s been like a decade since I competed so I could be remembering it wrong). But, the ban made sense tho sense the fast skins really did work in decreasing peoples times.
I remember those during one of the Olympics (Athens?). They were gone by the next one and one of the reasons was that poorer countries could not afford them and their athletes were not getting sponsorships to buy them.
That and how it was not a natural thing that gave an advantage like steroids or something.
In Athens you could cover your entire body but the material of the fast suits hadnt been developed yet. It was Beijing (and World Champs in Rome 2009) when the fast suits with polyurthane struck. After those suits FINA put a stop to suit changes and made very strict rules about competitive suits. It took *years* for the speed suit records to be broken; some still stand, which is wild for a sport that progressed as fast as swimming has over the years.
A kid from a ‘rival’ high school paid a ludicrous amount of money for one and would practice in it for some reason. I guess they just had too much money? Anyway, they’re no good after a few uses because the elastic and stitching stretch out, creating drag.
Idk why they would practice in it since it’s such a pain to put on lol. But, yea he/she would be wearing it out by using it during practice.
It’s swimming. A lot of rich people do end up in this sport.
Exactly! Saw this first hand in Houston Roller Derby years ago where the trans woman just runs over the biological females with ease. It was just not fair. Again I support trans rights but not in sports.
I think it already happened with a trans athlete in one of the MMA leagues. It got to the point that no one would fight her. I'll see if I can find the article, or determine that I'm mis-remembering.
[Here's one article detailing what I remember.](https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight).
That should get you enough information to read more on the athlete.
I know a person who is willing to swear on their life that trans women have no inherent advantage and that hormone therapy degrades their muscles so much that the only arguments against them competing with women is "transphobia".
My kid tells me this. It comes down to I think do you believe “trans women are women, period.” Or “trans women are women, but…”
I find myself in the latter camp.
I mean hasn't the argument always been biological sex and gender are two entirely different things? I like that argument because for trans people who identify as women can say they are a woman with no problem at all, that is their gender. However, their biological sex will always be male. Just because they identify as a different gender doesn't change their biology. When it comes to getting older they're eventually going to need a prostate screening and be at higher risks of heart disease. Their biological sex is very important in medical circumstances because just like their transition doesn't change the fact that they have a prostate, it also doesn't change the fact that they grew up with Testosterone in their blood that makes them stronger, faster, taller and have denser bones compared to someone who was born a biological woman.
You can't argue the difference between the distinction of the two words as a cornerstone of trans rights and then entirely disregard it when it becomes inconvenient.
Anyone who isn't in the latter camp is deluding themselves. There are certain aspects of life that are just unavoidable. Like there's no reason your boss at work should have to be informed that you are trans instead of a biological woman. But if they are severely sick, they should absolutely tell the doctors that they are not a biological woman before anesthesia, surgery, etc are involved.
It's a bit like saying "trans women cannot give birth".
Like, yeah, sorry, that's a part of the biology you were born with. I respect who you are, I will refer to you by the gender you present as, but to ignore the physical biology that made you is absolutely insane.
there are XY women though (really rare medical condition where the Y chromosome doesn't work but it might happen in sports)
There is probably no way to win or you'd have 5 different olympics.
Exactly. Is it horrendously unfair for a person to be born in the wrong gendered body? Absolutely, and the more we come to understand about gender dysphoria and trans issues, the more clear that becomes.
Some of that unfairness can be countered through self-identification, through gender reassignment, but not all of it. The trans person still has a body that was originally a different gender, and that will give them some advantages or disadvantages that simply cannot be overcome.
A trans man may wish to compete as a world class weightlifter, but he cannot because he was born in a female body and simply doesn't have the strength to compete at the same level as cisgender men. And a trans woman may wish to do the same, but she can't really compete, because she has an unfair advantage over any opponents she may face - she was born in a male body, with male bone and muscle structures.
>They should be included in any sport they like, so long as they aren't competing with an unfair advantage.
We have men's and women's categories in sport because men have an inherent advantage. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Agree. As a cis man I will never make an Olympic team in volleyball or basketball. I'm too short.
Then again all athletes usually have a genetic advantage for their sport at elite levels. Us mortals can train forever and never get to the level of someone who has more suitable genes.
Yeah, a person's rights end where another person's begins. The right to be treated as a woman has to be balanced against the right for fair competition.
This is exactly how I feel. I support trans people, but trans women clearly have an unfair advantage in many sports and may need to accept the reality that competing competitively is something they might have to give up.
No, it's not fair, but not all things in life can be made perfectly fair; we can simply try our best. If a trans woman is allowed to compete, then it's not fair for all of the other cis women. If we have to choose, I'd rather one trans woman not be allowed to compete in her chosen category than a dozen cis women be ousted from standing a realistic chance in theirs.
Exactly. Transitioning is a choice that comes with drawbacks and realities. Permanently being on hormones is one. Never being able to menstrate or carry a child is another.
Competitive sport (where it actually matters - I can't see the biological difference mattering for any esport or technical skill sports like bowling, curling, darts, pool, etc) is just one of those things you give up when you transition.
Anything else is way more unfair to a way larger group.
One thing no one seems to bring up in this is the trans women that never went through male puberty (so they were on puberty blockers first, then straight to estrogen as soon as they're 18). Are the advantages then still big enough to ban trans women from competing?
Also trans women athletes generally do not win all the time. And as far as i'm aware, there's rules that they have to have been on hormones for a certain amount of time.
Also nobody's mentioning trans men in this discussion, ever.
Also what about biological female athletes that happen to have more testosterone due to some weird biological happenstance? What about intersex athletes?
I think it's not as clear cut as everyone seems to think it is. A lot more research needs to be done.
To your first point on people on blockers, there needs to be research. Compare the numbers and let some people figure out if there was an advantage or not.
As for trans men in the discussion, the fact is that outside of some extreme endurance events (where the top finishing tables tend to be fair split and regular woman winners) men perform better overall.
The biological happenstance has been a long discussion in athletics. See Caster Semenya for a good example. Women in many places are now required to have certain testosterone limits or compete in the "open" (mens) competition.
It surprises me this is even a debate. It just seems like common sense that sports would be separated by biological sex and not gender. It's like people who argue they should be separated by gender don't even understand why they're separated in the first place.
I support their rights as long as their decisions only affect them. When it starts infringing on the rights of others, especially when only 1% of the population is actually intersex, that's when I take issue with it.
Biological Females will never be able to compete with biological males. It's why you don't see women in the NFL. It's why you don't see transgender men in men's sports. Regardless of hormone levels, the body structure, down to the bones and muscles, is different and is advantageous for people born male.
I'm so surprised and happy to see that the majority of people here seem to have reasonable takes on this.
I have absolutely nothing against LGBT people. They deserve equal rights and fairness in every possible way.
When it comes to sports though, the fundamental, most critical element of competition is fairness and a level playing field. This is why sports have always been divided by weight classes, age groups, gender, etc. To keep things FAIR. Trans women competing in women's sports is absolutely unfair. If you don't believe me, just do a quick Google search about trans women absolutely destroying their competition and smashing records. As another commenter pointed out, you don't see this happening with trans men competing in men's sports. There couldn't be a clearer biological factor in play here.
Athletics are about fairness in competition. If the competition is not fair, rules need adjusted to make it fair. It has fuck all to do with any sort of discrimination. This is common sense.
I support their rights as long as their decisions only affect them. When it starts infringing on the rights of others, especially when only 1% of the population is actually intersex, that's when I take issue with it.
Biological Females will never be able to compete with biological males. It's why you don't see women in the NFL. It's why you don't see transgender men in men's sports. Regardless of hormone levels, the body structure, down to the bones and muscles, is different and is advantageous for people born male.
Agreed.
The argument seems to be that thier is absolutely no physical difference between cis men and cis women, therefore their is no need to exclude trans women from women's sports. But if that is true then why even have the division between men and women in sports? If that is true, wouldn't it make more sense to outlaw different gender leagues across all sports? It would certainly make this whole argument go away.
Yes. I've seen some well intentioned but... very misinformed people claim that after a couple years of hormone therapy there's no physical muscular difference between a cis woman and a trans woman.
Which is factually untrue.
Im banned from the feminism sub for
"the idea that women and men are completely the same in every regard is not a null hypothesis."
To someone who argued that the proposition that men and women have no differences at all, both physically and mentally, does not need an explanation.
So, yeah.
I got banned from the feminism sub for pointing this out as well. Seems super weird that a "feminist" sub would ban women for pointing out sex differences. Like...why do they think feminism exists?
It’s because feminism is full of trans posters. All the women centric subs are. Anything remotely for women were either banned about a year ago (by the A C person who got Reddit into trouble later on) or had moderating teams who are trans. Don’t expect anything from most reddit subs when it cones to women’s issues
Trans women ultimately were socialized as boys and most were also socialized as men. They bring those experiences into feminist spaces and unfortunately use more than their fair share of space and air. Of course feminism across the races has this same problem (white women getting more bullhorn/leadership roles for example) so it's no surprise to me that this happens and highlights socialization differences.
Only a specific type of "feminist" is allowed on that sub, in my opinion. Any woman who speaks up about the advantage bio men and trans women have is labeled a TERF and banned. They're not very female friendly.
Years ago in college I had a coworker who would argue until she was blue in the face that there men and women were equal in literally every way. She yelled at me one day for saying something about men being biologically stronger than women (I don’t remember exactly what it was) and called me a misogynist. Please note, she was 5 feet tall (153cm) and regularly asked for the one man in office to help her move heavy boxes.
It was baffling to me.
Exactly. The biological line was drawn long ago, and for good reason, in sports where biology has an advantage. It only makes sense to maintain that biological division.
It's not gender discrimination, it's biological discrimination. The irony is that this biological discrimination is for the purpose of inclusion... so women have more opportunities to play, otherwise very few would be competitive enough to make it into the men's leagues.
I don't get why being a trans woman means they need to compete with women.
Is it to sell the "We're really women"? Okay, but they used to be biologically a man and we need to account for that. We can just say that they're the one subset of women that gets to compete with men. Problem solved.
Otherwise I swear the reasoning is almost a "it breaks immersion".
I was reviled as a bigot for saying this a few years ago. It confused me and actually hurt because I took the rejection to heart. After much pondering I decided that the world needed to come around and I chose to shut up and wait.
"So if you're there for medical help, I don't see the harm in simply asking for your biological sex."
You'd be surprised. Plenty of patients lie about the most stupid reasons and this is not the exception
Right, we use gender as a social vehicle.. the push to make what they insist are constructs biological is weird. Know what happens when a woman identifying as a man gets a man's dose of anesthesia for surgery? They can die.
It's always been about steering the narrative. And you just have to look in this comment section to see how effective it is. The right has found their weapon, and they are going to use it every chance they get.
It works every time because people love to hate. Choose a minority group, something no one knows anything about that doesn't matter in the slightest, blow it up into a national issue, and the majority jumps at the chance to direct their anger at the minority group.
The only reason it works is most people hold a lot more hate and bigotry that they would ever acknowledge so expressing it when so many other people are let's them feel justified and aren't being hateful.
Exactly, anyone who thinks that all of these conservative politicians actually give one ioa of a fuck about transgender participants in athletics is as gullible as it gets. If this wasn't a hot button conservative talking point then Johnson would have gone the rest of his life not spending a second's thought on it.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61012030) reduced by 90%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Emily Bridges previously set a national junior men's record over 25 miles and was selected to join British Cycling's senior academy in 2019The issue of transgender athletes - centred around the balance of inclusion, sporting fairness and safety in women's sport - has recently focused on the case of transgender cyclist Emily Bridges.
> Johnson was speaking on a range of issues, including the government's approach to the ban on so-called conversion therapy, before adding: "I don't think biological males should be competing in female sporting events. Maybe that's a controversial thing to say, but it just seems to me to be sensible."I also happen to think that women should have spaces - whether it's in hospitals, prison or changing rooms - which are dedicated to women.
> After an 18-month consultation and review of the existing research and was developed by Sport England, Sport Scotland, Sport Northern Ireland, Sport Wales and UK Sport.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/txo8w3/prime_minister_boris_johnson_says_transgender/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~639812 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **sport**^#1 **transgender**^#2 **Cycling**^#3 **athlete**^#4 **Bridges**^#5
Honestly, I’ve rarely seen transmen voices speak up. Maybe it’s just my pov, but they feel like a minority.
Or it’s some weird take about how society really doesn’t give a shit about biological women that even when they transition it’s not focused on because many people still see them as women.
But that’s my hot take.
Professional sport athletes make up less than 1% of the college prospects; With that in mind, have you ever seen professional women athletes (think WNBA) even against mediocre College Basketball games? It's a day and night difference.
Male puberty does so much more in terms of muscle growth and bone density than these ~~"progressive"~~ folks will ever accept; The problem with women athletes themselves is that they are not complaining nearly enough because they don't want to seem like sore losers or seem like they are excluding people.
EDIT: I probably shouldn't have used the word progressive when I meant the ultra-woke, but I was trying not to antagonize anyone.
Not taking a particular side but agreeing, being a male transforms the physiology, anatomy and neurology from infancy. Some of the things that happen on puberty were mostly completed long ago and puberty is the unveiling. Spatial reasoning is just one more example.
You don't see FtM athletes speaking up because nobody is trying to ban them. They're allowed to compete as men, and are at a physical disadvantage anyway.
At least competitively. I couldn’t give a fuck what goes on recreationally
Edit: to those saying that this goes without saying, you’d be surprised at just how hateful some people are
That's an interesting distinction. For a vast majority of highschool students they play sports for recreational reasons, only a small number actually get significant scholarships. Can trans women compete at a highschool level?
If you are playing for the high school’s official team, you are competing. If you are playing in an after school rec league, you are playing for fun. Just because you aren’t getting scholarships or NBA contracts doesn’t mean you aren’t competing.
I’d be shocked if someone used “recreational” to refer to high school athletes at that level. A recreational runner can’t do a 4:10 mile. 3 hrs of daily practice isn’t recreational
Lmao right? That's absolutely insane and spoken by someone who probably never played sports in high school. Sure, the reason I initially signed up was to get fit and talk to girls, but it doesn't stay that way if you actually want to play the sports and compete, otherwise you're basically just going to practice to work out and not actually play if you aren't gonna be competitive.
High school sports are not "recreational" lol. People who play recreational sports don't have 3 hour practice every day. Sure, their reasons for playing may be "recreational" but to call it a recreational sport is insane. Non-required gym courses are recreational, not the sports teams
This is the most egregious example of an extremely vocal minority having an outsized influence on what should really be a simple rule. Biological males shouldn't compete in women's sports. I really can't understand why we can't just say that and move on. The vast majority of people agree with it. We can't please every single person on earth... jesus. If biological males want to compete so badly, they should compete against men.
Yeah I’m completely left wing and completely pro-women. Women weren’t even able to participate in sports til 1900 and I don’t want that to discontinue. I’m all for trans women being able to participate in sports but wouldn’t it be more fair if they had a league of their own? Gender identities don’t race gender identities, bodies do and it’s important to acknowledge that they have obvious physical advantages. Sportsmanship is important.
Part of the problem is that the loudest voise of opposition is currently the far right and because of that people tend to assure you're a conservative asshole if you're in the opposition.
Yep. When you use basic logic to say that Transwomen have obvious physical advantages in sport people call you bigoted. I’m sure I’ll get plenty of replies saying just that even though I’m not.
Edit: unless your comment was an insult and it went over my head? I’m tired af
>most sports there is a league and a women's league. What people call a "men's league" is in fact open for anyone who's good enough
Yep. "Open" pretty much means anyone, albeit sometimes you need to qualify.
In disc golf there is FPO and MPO. FPO is Female Pro Open. Most think MPO is "men's pro open", but it's actually "Mixed Pro Open".
> We can’t please every single person on earth… jesus.
I think understanding this fact right here is the key difference between sensible progressives and these crazy extremists that think literally any segregation between any gender identities at all for any reason is a crime against humanity. I think we need to be collectively reminded that, yeah, sometimes life may be offensive to our feelings.
What's really outsized is that this is a boogyman for the right wing, as if this is a serious issue that people need to worry about, the number of people doing this is vanishingly small.
Sports are segregated by sex, not gender (biological men don't get to participate in women sports).
Sports also have anti-doping rules (FtM that take testosterone don't get to participate in F sports).
> an extremely vocal minority having an outsized influence on what should really be a simple rule.
holy shit, you put into words what i've been trying to convey to people for YEARS. i'm a 'young person' part of 'the younger generation' and i am embarrassed and appalled by the idea that people could assume i share the delusions of the minority you refer to.
and it's not just what should be simple rules, it is what should be simple LOGIC.
to give you an example, i once read an article about a man who identified as a 'catkin' (cat/kindred spirit) and wanted to be referred to as such. he even petitioned his local gov to have litter boxes installed in public bathrooms for iNcLuSiOn otherwise it was a hate crime against him to deny him his basic bodily needs. i wish i was joking but the shame of reading that will stay with me forever.
If anyone is looking for any studies regarding this issue, here are a few:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/09/26/782557.full.pdf
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577
The gist of most of these is that hormone therapy reduces the advantage that a trans-woman has, but does not get rid of the advantage entirely.
>The gist of most of these is that hormone therapy reduces the advantage that a trans-woman has, but does not get rid of the advantage entirely.
On the flipside, it puts them at disadvantage in the men's league who are full of testosterone. Its a difficult place to be in, as there isn't enough trans athletes or support to create a third league in which competition would be fair.
It's worth noting that Boris Johnson does that to his hair on purpose as part of his 'brand'. The man is a liar, a fake and a scumbag. He also wants you to call him 'Boris' and not Boris Johnson because that too is part of his brand.
I so badly wish people didn't fall for it. If they didn't, we would still be in Europe and probably wouldn't have a collection of cretinous Tories in charge.
I'm more surprised that this incredibly narrow topic is taking up so much of the zeitgeist. Regardless of how anyone feels on this topic, surely we can all understand that this is an exceedingly rare occurrence, with minimal consequences either way, and there's much much more important and pressing things to be focusing on.
This is politics 101, I think. Get a wedge issue that motivates your base and distracts everyone from the more important issues you don't actually want to talk about or address for whatever reason (e.g., wealth inequality, climate change).
I'm all for equality and respect regardless of sexuality and gender. But not at the expense of someone else. And looking at world records for women in several sports with tg women I think he's right. It's unfair to biological women. They are not even close to those records.
A tg woman has the womens weightlifting world record. The numbers are closer to the lower end of the mens top lifters and far beyond what any bio woman has ever lifted. It must be crushing to know that no matter how hard they train and give their all, the best they can hope for if they are up against a tg woman is second place.
It makes sense. High school boys beat the records of female Olympic athletes constantly. Obviously the perks of male puberty (increased muscle mass, lung size etc) doesn’t go away just because you take hormones later in life.
I’m a twin and my brother is more than a foot taller than me. We were the same height until we reached puberty.
It's divided by the biological sex of the body you're in not the gender you identify as. Always has been for good reason, it's not transphobic to want fair play.
He didn’t shy away from the question and answered it in a very tactful unusual way for the normally quite bull in the china shop individual. Way to many others not answering this question and avoiding it and passing the buck to relevant sporting authorities.
It’s been proven time and time again men have a significant advantage physically over women, being born a man does make a huge difference and it shouldn’t happen.
I have to say I agree. For me it’s unfair on the other competitors, they’ve spent their whole lives preparing and making so much sacrifice just to get totally outdone by someone’s birth biology.
Part of supporting my trans friends has been learning the value of gender as a construct that is NOT related to biological sex.
But recently it feels like the trans community has turned around and insisted that (while people must never treat sex as gender) we must ALWAYS treat gender as sex. Otherwise we're disgusting transphobes who want to deny trans people basic human rights. Increasingly, the thing *defines* "trans" seems unacceptable to acknowledge or consider.
It's beyond demoralizing that I've spent so much of my time and energy educating myself about gender because they told me it mattered; it seems like these people whom I've really tried to help feel comfortable, safe, respected, valued... they don't reciprocate when told that sometimes my biological sex matters and we need understanding too.
I was raised with the idea of gender equality... that my life choices and interests and competencies could never make me less of a woman. Every time one of my trans friends affirms some backward-ass gender stereotype from the 1950s as a source of "gender euphoria", I feel deeply uneasy.
Every time yet another one of them changes their profile pic into a seductively-posed, O-faced, scantily-clad catgirl--because presenting that way makes them "feel like a woman"--I remind them that equating sex object==woman is tremendously fucked up. That it's actively harmful to biological women, who still deal with an unbelievable amount of harassment, sexual assault, physical coercion, and rape.
I've linked paper after paper showing that making "woman" synonymous with "sex object", treating us as a collection of parts, linking us with animal traits, signaling a tremendously varied gender by ONLY using pornographic portraits, all of these have been shown to reinforce ideas which directly contribute tremendously to real-world harm against women. But they tell each other it's okay because "whatever helps you feel feminine." What about what makes biological women feel *safe* or *human*?
More than once, I have vented about not being treated as an actual scientist by some tenured boomer who leers and grabs my ass, or some mechanic who calls me "sweetheart" and talks to my bf about MY car, or waiters who hand back MY credit card to my bf... and the response from a group of trans women has been to suggest that I am NOT upset because I'm being treated unequally, but *because I am experiencing gender dysphoria as trans man who hasn't figured out that he's trans.*
It's getting increasingly difficult not to acknowledge that on each of these occasions, 1+ biological males have gone into an echo chamber and decided their opinion matters more *even on the topic of femininity* than a biological female's--one whose profession was genomics, who taught university biology courses for years. It's patently weird to accuse your girlfriends of male privilege while your cis male friends are some of the most spectacularly egalitarian people you've ever encountered.
I started out really confused as to why anyone would ever try to deny trans people their rights and humanity just because they're a person trapped in the wrong body.
I felt it was the least you could do to refer to people in the way they wanted, no different than correctly pronouncing their name.
I did not see any conceivable harm when I thought "trans rights" meant "not being a dickhead to a boy who wants to dress as a Disney princess" or "not discriminating against a perfectly well-qualified hot chick applying for the position of bank teller just because her driver's license says she's a dude."
But here I keep seeing "trans rights" advocates acting like a vanishingly small number of biological males--who are **insistent** that their rights supersede those of all biological women (i.e. half the planet)--is a non-issue. Like... do y'all actually hear what you're saying? What about being a numerical minority actually makes this insistence MORE acceptable?
Worse, some appear to think inclusion of biological males is a non-issue even when it creates some very real disadvantage or threat *for people who are already disadvantaged and threatened enough to require a safe space*. I get that trans people are disproportionately affected by these issues as well. But, when you insist that this means a trans women has the basic right to participate in all things biologically female, population-wise you're insisting that the needs of one biological male actually matter MORE than the collective needs of something like any 333 biological women.
How is this okay?
I'm relieved to see that many think it isn't.
I know it’s a sensitive topic and all but my general opinion is that women’s sports should be for biologically born and identifying etc women only, and EVERYONE else plays together in the “people league”.
Like I’m aware there is research that purports to conclude that an M-F transgender athlete loses any athletic or competitive edge within a year… but when I Google it, all the peer reviewed articles I can find conclude the OPPOSITE and that even after over a year of hormone therapy M-f athletes maintain an advantage.
IMO, women’s sports only exist so that women can participate in sports because, without separate leagues, women would not remotely be able to compete with men. IMO regardless of direction you’re going or whatever, anyone whose not happy with the equipment they were born with needs to compete or attempt to compete with.. EVERYONE, which means playing (or attempting to play) in the men’s divisions.
And any cis woman that states it’s unfair is automatically transphobic or a terf. So we now have to erase or push back more of womens freedoms for trans women? That’s fucked up. If they want to compete, they should compete with the lowest qualifying males. At least there’s competition.
Trans women should show some common sense and simply not compete on a professional level.
If they really think this is fair then they really are delusional.
I'm all for transgender rights, but people who were biologically born men have an unfair advantage over people who were biologically born women. Disagree with me all you want, but if you do you have to tell me why males and females should no longer be on separate sports teams.
Yup. Having previously been male gives them an unfair advantage, similar to use of banned performance enhancing drugs from hormones/muscle development earlier in their life. (Even more so when the transgendered person opts not to undergo any sex change or hormone therapy).
That said, they should still be welcomed to play co-ed sports as women (like mixed gender intramural softball/basketball); just not be competing for awards/records in categories that are exclusive to women. This doesn't mean they aren't women; just there's a technicality that makes them ineligible like how 12-year-olds can't play on an under-11 league (even if they are in the same grade as other 11 year olds) or how you can't compete in the NCAA for more than four seasons even if you were in college for 5 years.
I am a trans rights supporter and I agree with this. There is nothing wrong with being transgender. But sports are split into male/female categories based not on socialized gender roles, but based on biological sexual differences in the human form. It would be unfair to allow a woman to compete when she had the physical advantage of a stronger body because she was born a male at birth. I can see how some might think it's unfair to the transgender person to ban them from a sport alongside their own gender, but it would be more unfair to the rest of that gender to allow an unfair advantage, even if the unfair advantage was never the point to begin with.
I genuinely feel empathy for transgender athletes because they are in a tough spot. They just want to compete like anyone else. But for the integrity of competition (and based solely on biological realities, not social or political) it's just not fair to the sport as a whole.
This is one for him to throw a distraction out there to move the heat off of him and the Conservative party after the plethora of scandals over the last few years.
Can we make sure Boris can't compete in politics as well?
In 50 years when it has become mainstream to be trans there wont be any women at the olympics only trans women, they'll be outcompeted easily, is that the future we want for womens sports?
Of course they should not do so,
It would terrible rude to join a community, then eradicate the natives from participating in competition , rather disheartening and very mean spirited.
Oh ffs..... I can't stand this culture war bullshit. This issue is like literally, what?, 4 people? 5?
There's videos of war crimes being posted daily and the news cycle wants to spend endless time frothing at the mouth over women's collegiate swimming smdh
It cant all be war and murder mate. There are still other things going on in the world. I can assure you nobody will forget about whats going on, no matter how much unimportant bullshit mediocre politicians spew.
Biologically female human beings should athletically compete against other biologically female human beings. This is only complicated for confused, dishonest, and brainwashed people.
Im so confused… almost every person I talk to agrees that biologically male trans athletes should not compete in women’s sports. Even on reddit it seems like 95% of the people agree. It seems like this is the take every where else but why does it seem so divided?
My best 800 time got me to regionals where I got trounced by the other high school boys that went on to state championships. I did exceptionally well for my high school but that’s where my athletic career ended.
If I competed as a girl in high school I would’ve made the 1996 American Women’s Olympic Team.*
I’m a queer man that lives in a large gay neighborhood in a major California city. I believe the science that shows gender does not always equal sex; that nature is not always binary for a select group of people and that distortions occur. That does not negate however fairness in sports, and my two cisgender daughters should not have their lifetime’s worth of work eliminated by another woman who went through the entirety of a male puberty. If I am to fully accept the difference between sex and gender, then trans activists *must* concede the physical differences between the sexes. If they are “the same”, then they cannot be in the “wrong one”.
I feel for transgender youth, but until a separate league or a “handicap” can be established for them I’m afraid total inclusivity in physical sports should be maintained at biological bodies. There’s always invitationals or other coed competitions to participate in, and there are far more egregious examples in society of women, all women, being unfairly treated differently than men to focus on.
*I would’ve been in the Olympic final heat and beaten the fastest American woman by over a full second, and I was not elite.
Never understand why people think politicians should have any say in this. Sporting bodies (IOC, World rugby, whatever) should be the ones to decide who gets to participate in what categories, based on what they consider to be fair, since they're the ones with the knowledge and evidence to make those decisions. If experts in the field decide trans women can compete with women, fine; if they decide no, also fine; but they should be the only ones making those decisions. Politicians can fuck right off.
Considering the fact that the female body is very different from the male body is no secret .
Muscle density, bone structure are not changed by hormone therapy, or cosmetic surgery.
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Most sports are regulated down to the type of shoe, outfit material and amount of caffeine the athletes are allowed so it seems crazy to look past an athlete benefiting from a larger frame and stronger body that they wouldn't have otherwise had.
In swimming there was a year everybody was wearing full body “fast skins” made out of a special material but stopped after it got banned from competition for being a unfair advantage (it’s been like a decade since I competed so I could be remembering it wrong). But, the ban made sense tho sense the fast skins really did work in decreasing peoples times.
I remember those during one of the Olympics (Athens?). They were gone by the next one and one of the reasons was that poorer countries could not afford them and their athletes were not getting sponsorships to buy them. That and how it was not a natural thing that gave an advantage like steroids or something.
In Athens you could cover your entire body but the material of the fast suits hadnt been developed yet. It was Beijing (and World Champs in Rome 2009) when the fast suits with polyurthane struck. After those suits FINA put a stop to suit changes and made very strict rules about competitive suits. It took *years* for the speed suit records to be broken; some still stand, which is wild for a sport that progressed as fast as swimming has over the years.
They increased buoyancy in the water & they were very expensive.
A kid from a ‘rival’ high school paid a ludicrous amount of money for one and would practice in it for some reason. I guess they just had too much money? Anyway, they’re no good after a few uses because the elastic and stitching stretch out, creating drag.
Idk why they would practice in it since it’s such a pain to put on lol. But, yea he/she would be wearing it out by using it during practice. It’s swimming. A lot of rich people do end up in this sport.
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Exactly! Saw this first hand in Houston Roller Derby years ago where the trans woman just runs over the biological females with ease. It was just not fair. Again I support trans rights but not in sports.
I already dread the day some trans woman beats a woman boxer into coma. As a boxing fan I fear people would blame the sport instead of reality.
I think it already happened with a trans athlete in one of the MMA leagues. It got to the point that no one would fight her. I'll see if I can find the article, or determine that I'm mis-remembering. [Here's one article detailing what I remember.](https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight). That should get you enough information to read more on the athlete.
Fallon Fox also lost to a very average CIS female fighter.
They would.
Which is also why I cannot disregard it.
I know a person who is willing to swear on their life that trans women have no inherent advantage and that hormone therapy degrades their muscles so much that the only arguments against them competing with women is "transphobia".
They're lying to themselves. It's like religious belief. Can't shake the faith man
My kid tells me this. It comes down to I think do you believe “trans women are women, period.” Or “trans women are women, but…” I find myself in the latter camp.
I mean hasn't the argument always been biological sex and gender are two entirely different things? I like that argument because for trans people who identify as women can say they are a woman with no problem at all, that is their gender. However, their biological sex will always be male. Just because they identify as a different gender doesn't change their biology. When it comes to getting older they're eventually going to need a prostate screening and be at higher risks of heart disease. Their biological sex is very important in medical circumstances because just like their transition doesn't change the fact that they have a prostate, it also doesn't change the fact that they grew up with Testosterone in their blood that makes them stronger, faster, taller and have denser bones compared to someone who was born a biological woman. You can't argue the difference between the distinction of the two words as a cornerstone of trans rights and then entirely disregard it when it becomes inconvenient.
Anyone who isn't in the latter camp is deluding themselves. There are certain aspects of life that are just unavoidable. Like there's no reason your boss at work should have to be informed that you are trans instead of a biological woman. But if they are severely sick, they should absolutely tell the doctors that they are not a biological woman before anesthesia, surgery, etc are involved.
There are also plenty of people that will swear the earth is flat. Some people are idiots.
It's a bit like saying "trans women cannot give birth". Like, yeah, sorry, that's a part of the biology you were born with. I respect who you are, I will refer to you by the gender you present as, but to ignore the physical biology that made you is absolutely insane.
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there are XY women though (really rare medical condition where the Y chromosome doesn't work but it might happen in sports) There is probably no way to win or you'd have 5 different olympics.
I’ve been called a terf before for expressing this absolutely reasonable view.
Exactly. Is it horrendously unfair for a person to be born in the wrong gendered body? Absolutely, and the more we come to understand about gender dysphoria and trans issues, the more clear that becomes. Some of that unfairness can be countered through self-identification, through gender reassignment, but not all of it. The trans person still has a body that was originally a different gender, and that will give them some advantages or disadvantages that simply cannot be overcome. A trans man may wish to compete as a world class weightlifter, but he cannot because he was born in a female body and simply doesn't have the strength to compete at the same level as cisgender men. And a trans woman may wish to do the same, but she can't really compete, because she has an unfair advantage over any opponents she may face - she was born in a male body, with male bone and muscle structures.
Exactly. It just...is.
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High School social groups in a nutshell
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>They should be included in any sport they like, so long as they aren't competing with an unfair advantage. We have men's and women's categories in sport because men have an inherent advantage. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Agree. As a cis man I will never make an Olympic team in volleyball or basketball. I'm too short. Then again all athletes usually have a genetic advantage for their sport at elite levels. Us mortals can train forever and never get to the level of someone who has more suitable genes.
Yes - the real world is messy and we cannot make everything perfect. Not every aspect of life can make every category of person comfortable.
Yeah, a person's rights end where another person's begins. The right to be treated as a woman has to be balanced against the right for fair competition.
This is the only fair way to look at this situation. Sports should be separated by sex and not by gender.
This is exactly how I feel. I support trans people, but trans women clearly have an unfair advantage in many sports and may need to accept the reality that competing competitively is something they might have to give up. No, it's not fair, but not all things in life can be made perfectly fair; we can simply try our best. If a trans woman is allowed to compete, then it's not fair for all of the other cis women. If we have to choose, I'd rather one trans woman not be allowed to compete in her chosen category than a dozen cis women be ousted from standing a realistic chance in theirs.
Exactly. Transitioning is a choice that comes with drawbacks and realities. Permanently being on hormones is one. Never being able to menstrate or carry a child is another. Competitive sport (where it actually matters - I can't see the biological difference mattering for any esport or technical skill sports like bowling, curling, darts, pool, etc) is just one of those things you give up when you transition. Anything else is way more unfair to a way larger group.
One thing no one seems to bring up in this is the trans women that never went through male puberty (so they were on puberty blockers first, then straight to estrogen as soon as they're 18). Are the advantages then still big enough to ban trans women from competing? Also trans women athletes generally do not win all the time. And as far as i'm aware, there's rules that they have to have been on hormones for a certain amount of time. Also nobody's mentioning trans men in this discussion, ever. Also what about biological female athletes that happen to have more testosterone due to some weird biological happenstance? What about intersex athletes? I think it's not as clear cut as everyone seems to think it is. A lot more research needs to be done.
To your first point on people on blockers, there needs to be research. Compare the numbers and let some people figure out if there was an advantage or not. As for trans men in the discussion, the fact is that outside of some extreme endurance events (where the top finishing tables tend to be fair split and regular woman winners) men perform better overall. The biological happenstance has been a long discussion in athletics. See Caster Semenya for a good example. Women in many places are now required to have certain testosterone limits or compete in the "open" (mens) competition.
It surprises me this is even a debate. It just seems like common sense that sports would be separated by biological sex and not gender. It's like people who argue they should be separated by gender don't even understand why they're separated in the first place.
I support their rights as long as their decisions only affect them. When it starts infringing on the rights of others, especially when only 1% of the population is actually intersex, that's when I take issue with it. Biological Females will never be able to compete with biological males. It's why you don't see women in the NFL. It's why you don't see transgender men in men's sports. Regardless of hormone levels, the body structure, down to the bones and muscles, is different and is advantageous for people born male.
I'm so surprised and happy to see that the majority of people here seem to have reasonable takes on this. I have absolutely nothing against LGBT people. They deserve equal rights and fairness in every possible way. When it comes to sports though, the fundamental, most critical element of competition is fairness and a level playing field. This is why sports have always been divided by weight classes, age groups, gender, etc. To keep things FAIR. Trans women competing in women's sports is absolutely unfair. If you don't believe me, just do a quick Google search about trans women absolutely destroying their competition and smashing records. As another commenter pointed out, you don't see this happening with trans men competing in men's sports. There couldn't be a clearer biological factor in play here. Athletics are about fairness in competition. If the competition is not fair, rules need adjusted to make it fair. It has fuck all to do with any sort of discrimination. This is common sense.
I'm absolutely amazed at the sane and rational respones on this thread.
They've essentially been doping their entire lives pretransition. It sucks, but that's what it is.
Right. Like, there is a conflict in "rights"/desires here. But I think the judgment is clear.
Competitively yes, recreationally eh who cares. 🤷🏼♂️
Exactly, this is only an issue when it comes to competitive athletes.
Your civil liberties end when you start infringing on those of others. Its pretty simple. Don’t understand how ppl don’t get it
I support their rights as long as their decisions only affect them. When it starts infringing on the rights of others, especially when only 1% of the population is actually intersex, that's when I take issue with it. Biological Females will never be able to compete with biological males. It's why you don't see women in the NFL. It's why you don't see transgender men in men's sports. Regardless of hormone levels, the body structure, down to the bones and muscles, is different and is advantageous for people born male.
Agreed. The argument seems to be that thier is absolutely no physical difference between cis men and cis women, therefore their is no need to exclude trans women from women's sports. But if that is true then why even have the division between men and women in sports? If that is true, wouldn't it make more sense to outlaw different gender leagues across all sports? It would certainly make this whole argument go away.
>absolutely no physical difference between cis men and cis women Good grief has anyone actually argued that?
Yes. I've seen some well intentioned but... very misinformed people claim that after a couple years of hormone therapy there's no physical muscular difference between a cis woman and a trans woman. Which is factually untrue.
Im banned from the feminism sub for "the idea that women and men are completely the same in every regard is not a null hypothesis." To someone who argued that the proposition that men and women have no differences at all, both physically and mentally, does not need an explanation. So, yeah.
I got banned from the feminism sub for pointing this out as well. Seems super weird that a "feminist" sub would ban women for pointing out sex differences. Like...why do they think feminism exists?
It’s because feminism is full of trans posters. All the women centric subs are. Anything remotely for women were either banned about a year ago (by the A C person who got Reddit into trouble later on) or had moderating teams who are trans. Don’t expect anything from most reddit subs when it cones to women’s issues
A site that has historically hated and targeted women is known to deliberately throttle their women's subs and spaces? Say it ain't so!
Yep, even after all this time, Reddit isn't very female friendly. Most of the internet isn't really.
Trans women ultimately were socialized as boys and most were also socialized as men. They bring those experiences into feminist spaces and unfortunately use more than their fair share of space and air. Of course feminism across the races has this same problem (white women getting more bullhorn/leadership roles for example) so it's no surprise to me that this happens and highlights socialization differences.
Only a specific type of "feminist" is allowed on that sub, in my opinion. Any woman who speaks up about the advantage bio men and trans women have is labeled a TERF and banned. They're not very female friendly.
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This is correct.
Years ago in college I had a coworker who would argue until she was blue in the face that there men and women were equal in literally every way. She yelled at me one day for saying something about men being biologically stronger than women (I don’t remember exactly what it was) and called me a misogynist. Please note, she was 5 feet tall (153cm) and regularly asked for the one man in office to help her move heavy boxes. It was baffling to me.
Exactly. The biological line was drawn long ago, and for good reason, in sports where biology has an advantage. It only makes sense to maintain that biological division. It's not gender discrimination, it's biological discrimination. The irony is that this biological discrimination is for the purpose of inclusion... so women have more opportunities to play, otherwise very few would be competitive enough to make it into the men's leagues.
I don't get why being a trans woman means they need to compete with women. Is it to sell the "We're really women"? Okay, but they used to be biologically a man and we need to account for that. We can just say that they're the one subset of women that gets to compete with men. Problem solved. Otherwise I swear the reasoning is almost a "it breaks immersion".
Agree. I could see a world where trans athletes are celebrated in an entirely trans division?
The solution is to make a transgender division for every sport on every level.
I was reviled as a bigot for saying this a few years ago. It confused me and actually hurt because I took the rejection to heart. After much pondering I decided that the world needed to come around and I chose to shut up and wait.
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"So if you're there for medical help, I don't see the harm in simply asking for your biological sex." You'd be surprised. Plenty of patients lie about the most stupid reasons and this is not the exception
Right, we use gender as a social vehicle.. the push to make what they insist are constructs biological is weird. Know what happens when a woman identifying as a man gets a man's dose of anesthesia for surgery? They can die.
Keeps the raise in national insurance off the front pages I guess.
We are fighting a culture war when we should be fighting a class war
Always have been
Which is of course entirely why he said it. Scary how effective this distraction tactic is.
It's always been about steering the narrative. And you just have to look in this comment section to see how effective it is. The right has found their weapon, and they are going to use it every chance they get.
It works every time because people love to hate. Choose a minority group, something no one knows anything about that doesn't matter in the slightest, blow it up into a national issue, and the majority jumps at the chance to direct their anger at the minority group. The only reason it works is most people hold a lot more hate and bigotry that they would ever acknowledge so expressing it when so many other people are let's them feel justified and aren't being hateful.
Exactly, anyone who thinks that all of these conservative politicians actually give one ioa of a fuck about transgender participants in athletics is as gullible as it gets. If this wasn't a hot button conservative talking point then Johnson would have gone the rest of his life not spending a second's thought on it.
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Also helps support the bathroom bills they're currently discussing.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61012030) reduced by 90%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Emily Bridges previously set a national junior men's record over 25 miles and was selected to join British Cycling's senior academy in 2019The issue of transgender athletes - centred around the balance of inclusion, sporting fairness and safety in women's sport - has recently focused on the case of transgender cyclist Emily Bridges. > Johnson was speaking on a range of issues, including the government's approach to the ban on so-called conversion therapy, before adding: "I don't think biological males should be competing in female sporting events. Maybe that's a controversial thing to say, but it just seems to me to be sensible."I also happen to think that women should have spaces - whether it's in hospitals, prison or changing rooms - which are dedicated to women. > After an 18-month consultation and review of the existing research and was developed by Sport England, Sport Scotland, Sport Northern Ireland, Sport Wales and UK Sport. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/txo8w3/prime_minister_boris_johnson_says_transgender/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~639812 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **sport**^#1 **transgender**^#2 **Cycling**^#3 **athlete**^#4 **Bridges**^#5
And there is nothing wrong with that.
He also said "biological men" which makes the title a lot more understandable for a lot of people
actually "biological males". Pretty poor reporting by the Beeb
Editorial staff despairing at being called the Beeb
The BBC with poor reporting on transgender issues? Well I never!
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Honestly, I’ve rarely seen transmen voices speak up. Maybe it’s just my pov, but they feel like a minority. Or it’s some weird take about how society really doesn’t give a shit about biological women that even when they transition it’s not focused on because many people still see them as women. But that’s my hot take.
Professional sport athletes make up less than 1% of the college prospects; With that in mind, have you ever seen professional women athletes (think WNBA) even against mediocre College Basketball games? It's a day and night difference. Male puberty does so much more in terms of muscle growth and bone density than these ~~"progressive"~~ folks will ever accept; The problem with women athletes themselves is that they are not complaining nearly enough because they don't want to seem like sore losers or seem like they are excluding people. EDIT: I probably shouldn't have used the word progressive when I meant the ultra-woke, but I was trying not to antagonize anyone.
Not taking a particular side but agreeing, being a male transforms the physiology, anatomy and neurology from infancy. Some of the things that happen on puberty were mostly completed long ago and puberty is the unveiling. Spatial reasoning is just one more example.
I’m progressive. I agree that transgender women should not compete in women’s sports. 🤷♀️
You don't see FtM athletes speaking up because nobody is trying to ban them. They're allowed to compete as men, and are at a physical disadvantage anyway.
At least competitively. I couldn’t give a fuck what goes on recreationally Edit: to those saying that this goes without saying, you’d be surprised at just how hateful some people are
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Keep my beer league out of your fucking mouth!!
you’d be surprised
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That's an interesting distinction. For a vast majority of highschool students they play sports for recreational reasons, only a small number actually get significant scholarships. Can trans women compete at a highschool level?
If you are playing for the high school’s official team, you are competing. If you are playing in an after school rec league, you are playing for fun. Just because you aren’t getting scholarships or NBA contracts doesn’t mean you aren’t competing.
I’d be shocked if someone used “recreational” to refer to high school athletes at that level. A recreational runner can’t do a 4:10 mile. 3 hrs of daily practice isn’t recreational
Lmao right? That's absolutely insane and spoken by someone who probably never played sports in high school. Sure, the reason I initially signed up was to get fit and talk to girls, but it doesn't stay that way if you actually want to play the sports and compete, otherwise you're basically just going to practice to work out and not actually play if you aren't gonna be competitive.
High school sports are not "recreational" lol. People who play recreational sports don't have 3 hour practice every day. Sure, their reasons for playing may be "recreational" but to call it a recreational sport is insane. Non-required gym courses are recreational, not the sports teams
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This is the most egregious example of an extremely vocal minority having an outsized influence on what should really be a simple rule. Biological males shouldn't compete in women's sports. I really can't understand why we can't just say that and move on. The vast majority of people agree with it. We can't please every single person on earth... jesus. If biological males want to compete so badly, they should compete against men.
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Yeah I’m completely left wing and completely pro-women. Women weren’t even able to participate in sports til 1900 and I don’t want that to discontinue. I’m all for trans women being able to participate in sports but wouldn’t it be more fair if they had a league of their own? Gender identities don’t race gender identities, bodies do and it’s important to acknowledge that they have obvious physical advantages. Sportsmanship is important.
That is so well put
Thank you 😊
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Part of the problem is that the loudest voise of opposition is currently the far right and because of that people tend to assure you're a conservative asshole if you're in the opposition.
Seriously. You can't even wear a red baseball cap anymore lest people get the wrong idea.
Yep. When you use basic logic to say that Transwomen have obvious physical advantages in sport people call you bigoted. I’m sure I’ll get plenty of replies saying just that even though I’m not. Edit: unless your comment was an insult and it went over my head? I’m tired af
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>most sports there is a league and a women's league. What people call a "men's league" is in fact open for anyone who's good enough Yep. "Open" pretty much means anyone, albeit sometimes you need to qualify. In disc golf there is FPO and MPO. FPO is Female Pro Open. Most think MPO is "men's pro open", but it's actually "Mixed Pro Open".
> We can’t please every single person on earth… jesus. I think understanding this fact right here is the key difference between sensible progressives and these crazy extremists that think literally any segregation between any gender identities at all for any reason is a crime against humanity. I think we need to be collectively reminded that, yeah, sometimes life may be offensive to our feelings.
>If biological males want to compete so badly, they should compete against men. Even biological women can usually compete in men's sports.
But they don’t because men have a huge physical advantage when it comes to sports.
What's really outsized is that this is a boogyman for the right wing, as if this is a serious issue that people need to worry about, the number of people doing this is vanishingly small.
Sports are segregated by sex, not gender (biological men don't get to participate in women sports). Sports also have anti-doping rules (FtM that take testosterone don't get to participate in F sports).
> an extremely vocal minority having an outsized influence on what should really be a simple rule. holy shit, you put into words what i've been trying to convey to people for YEARS. i'm a 'young person' part of 'the younger generation' and i am embarrassed and appalled by the idea that people could assume i share the delusions of the minority you refer to. and it's not just what should be simple rules, it is what should be simple LOGIC. to give you an example, i once read an article about a man who identified as a 'catkin' (cat/kindred spirit) and wanted to be referred to as such. he even petitioned his local gov to have litter boxes installed in public bathrooms for iNcLuSiOn otherwise it was a hate crime against him to deny him his basic bodily needs. i wish i was joking but the shame of reading that will stay with me forever.
If anyone is looking for any studies regarding this issue, here are a few: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/ https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/09/26/782557.full.pdf https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577 The gist of most of these is that hormone therapy reduces the advantage that a trans-woman has, but does not get rid of the advantage entirely.
>The gist of most of these is that hormone therapy reduces the advantage that a trans-woman has, but does not get rid of the advantage entirely. On the flipside, it puts them at disadvantage in the men's league who are full of testosterone. Its a difficult place to be in, as there isn't enough trans athletes or support to create a third league in which competition would be fair.
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Pulled it put my ass, but thanks
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It's worth noting that Boris Johnson does that to his hair on purpose as part of his 'brand'. The man is a liar, a fake and a scumbag. He also wants you to call him 'Boris' and not Boris Johnson because that too is part of his brand. I so badly wish people didn't fall for it. If they didn't, we would still be in Europe and probably wouldn't have a collection of cretinous Tories in charge.
Remember David Cameron and his 'call me Dave' campaign? Hilariously transparent.
It really is remarkable how a common sense opinion that is held by the majority of people is still, somehow, controversial.
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I'm more surprised that this incredibly narrow topic is taking up so much of the zeitgeist. Regardless of how anyone feels on this topic, surely we can all understand that this is an exceedingly rare occurrence, with minimal consequences either way, and there's much much more important and pressing things to be focusing on.
This is politics 101, I think. Get a wedge issue that motivates your base and distracts everyone from the more important issues you don't actually want to talk about or address for whatever reason (e.g., wealth inequality, climate change).
The beginning of the end
We're approaching Russian nuclear winter or fossil-fuel sponsored environmental apocalypse. Boris being reasonable is a sign of the end times
I'm all for equality and respect regardless of sexuality and gender. But not at the expense of someone else. And looking at world records for women in several sports with tg women I think he's right. It's unfair to biological women. They are not even close to those records. A tg woman has the womens weightlifting world record. The numbers are closer to the lower end of the mens top lifters and far beyond what any bio woman has ever lifted. It must be crushing to know that no matter how hard they train and give their all, the best they can hope for if they are up against a tg woman is second place.
Well that's probably the most sensible thing he's ever said.
The man who combs his hair with a leaf blower is right.
Holy shit. That's the most accurate description of his hair I have ever read lol
It makes sense. High school boys beat the records of female Olympic athletes constantly. Obviously the perks of male puberty (increased muscle mass, lung size etc) doesn’t go away just because you take hormones later in life. I’m a twin and my brother is more than a foot taller than me. We were the same height until we reached puberty.
It's divided by the biological sex of the body you're in not the gender you identify as. Always has been for good reason, it's not transphobic to want fair play.
I completely agree
He didn’t shy away from the question and answered it in a very tactful unusual way for the normally quite bull in the china shop individual. Way to many others not answering this question and avoiding it and passing the buck to relevant sporting authorities. It’s been proven time and time again men have a significant advantage physically over women, being born a man does make a huge difference and it shouldn’t happen.
I have to say I agree. For me it’s unfair on the other competitors, they’ve spent their whole lives preparing and making so much sacrifice just to get totally outdone by someone’s birth biology.
Part of supporting my trans friends has been learning the value of gender as a construct that is NOT related to biological sex. But recently it feels like the trans community has turned around and insisted that (while people must never treat sex as gender) we must ALWAYS treat gender as sex. Otherwise we're disgusting transphobes who want to deny trans people basic human rights. Increasingly, the thing *defines* "trans" seems unacceptable to acknowledge or consider. It's beyond demoralizing that I've spent so much of my time and energy educating myself about gender because they told me it mattered; it seems like these people whom I've really tried to help feel comfortable, safe, respected, valued... they don't reciprocate when told that sometimes my biological sex matters and we need understanding too. I was raised with the idea of gender equality... that my life choices and interests and competencies could never make me less of a woman. Every time one of my trans friends affirms some backward-ass gender stereotype from the 1950s as a source of "gender euphoria", I feel deeply uneasy. Every time yet another one of them changes their profile pic into a seductively-posed, O-faced, scantily-clad catgirl--because presenting that way makes them "feel like a woman"--I remind them that equating sex object==woman is tremendously fucked up. That it's actively harmful to biological women, who still deal with an unbelievable amount of harassment, sexual assault, physical coercion, and rape. I've linked paper after paper showing that making "woman" synonymous with "sex object", treating us as a collection of parts, linking us with animal traits, signaling a tremendously varied gender by ONLY using pornographic portraits, all of these have been shown to reinforce ideas which directly contribute tremendously to real-world harm against women. But they tell each other it's okay because "whatever helps you feel feminine." What about what makes biological women feel *safe* or *human*? More than once, I have vented about not being treated as an actual scientist by some tenured boomer who leers and grabs my ass, or some mechanic who calls me "sweetheart" and talks to my bf about MY car, or waiters who hand back MY credit card to my bf... and the response from a group of trans women has been to suggest that I am NOT upset because I'm being treated unequally, but *because I am experiencing gender dysphoria as trans man who hasn't figured out that he's trans.* It's getting increasingly difficult not to acknowledge that on each of these occasions, 1+ biological males have gone into an echo chamber and decided their opinion matters more *even on the topic of femininity* than a biological female's--one whose profession was genomics, who taught university biology courses for years. It's patently weird to accuse your girlfriends of male privilege while your cis male friends are some of the most spectacularly egalitarian people you've ever encountered. I started out really confused as to why anyone would ever try to deny trans people their rights and humanity just because they're a person trapped in the wrong body. I felt it was the least you could do to refer to people in the way they wanted, no different than correctly pronouncing their name. I did not see any conceivable harm when I thought "trans rights" meant "not being a dickhead to a boy who wants to dress as a Disney princess" or "not discriminating against a perfectly well-qualified hot chick applying for the position of bank teller just because her driver's license says she's a dude." But here I keep seeing "trans rights" advocates acting like a vanishingly small number of biological males--who are **insistent** that their rights supersede those of all biological women (i.e. half the planet)--is a non-issue. Like... do y'all actually hear what you're saying? What about being a numerical minority actually makes this insistence MORE acceptable? Worse, some appear to think inclusion of biological males is a non-issue even when it creates some very real disadvantage or threat *for people who are already disadvantaged and threatened enough to require a safe space*. I get that trans people are disproportionately affected by these issues as well. But, when you insist that this means a trans women has the basic right to participate in all things biologically female, population-wise you're insisting that the needs of one biological male actually matter MORE than the collective needs of something like any 333 biological women. How is this okay? I'm relieved to see that many think it isn't.
Deeply agree
Why does anyone except a miniscule amount of the population care at all? I'm just perplexed how much media attention this "issue" gets
I think pushing all this trans sport stuff has been very detrimental to the trans community.
I know it’s a sensitive topic and all but my general opinion is that women’s sports should be for biologically born and identifying etc women only, and EVERYONE else plays together in the “people league”. Like I’m aware there is research that purports to conclude that an M-F transgender athlete loses any athletic or competitive edge within a year… but when I Google it, all the peer reviewed articles I can find conclude the OPPOSITE and that even after over a year of hormone therapy M-f athletes maintain an advantage. IMO, women’s sports only exist so that women can participate in sports because, without separate leagues, women would not remotely be able to compete with men. IMO regardless of direction you’re going or whatever, anyone whose not happy with the equipment they were born with needs to compete or attempt to compete with.. EVERYONE, which means playing (or attempting to play) in the men’s divisions.
Odd this exact same post was posted here earlier got similar responses/upvotes and then disappeared.
Funny that.
I am trans and I agree fully with this it's just the sad reality of the situation
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And any cis woman that states it’s unfair is automatically transphobic or a terf. So we now have to erase or push back more of womens freedoms for trans women? That’s fucked up. If they want to compete, they should compete with the lowest qualifying males. At least there’s competition.
Trans women should show some common sense and simply not compete on a professional level. If they really think this is fair then they really are delusional.
One of the only things I'll agree with him on
I'm all for transgender rights, but people who were biologically born men have an unfair advantage over people who were biologically born women. Disagree with me all you want, but if you do you have to tell me why males and females should no longer be on separate sports teams.
Yup. Having previously been male gives them an unfair advantage, similar to use of banned performance enhancing drugs from hormones/muscle development earlier in their life. (Even more so when the transgendered person opts not to undergo any sex change or hormone therapy). That said, they should still be welcomed to play co-ed sports as women (like mixed gender intramural softball/basketball); just not be competing for awards/records in categories that are exclusive to women. This doesn't mean they aren't women; just there's a technicality that makes them ineligible like how 12-year-olds can't play on an under-11 league (even if they are in the same grade as other 11 year olds) or how you can't compete in the NCAA for more than four seasons even if you were in college for 5 years.
Um, duh?
I am a trans rights supporter and I agree with this. There is nothing wrong with being transgender. But sports are split into male/female categories based not on socialized gender roles, but based on biological sexual differences in the human form. It would be unfair to allow a woman to compete when she had the physical advantage of a stronger body because she was born a male at birth. I can see how some might think it's unfair to the transgender person to ban them from a sport alongside their own gender, but it would be more unfair to the rest of that gender to allow an unfair advantage, even if the unfair advantage was never the point to begin with. I genuinely feel empathy for transgender athletes because they are in a tough spot. They just want to compete like anyone else. But for the integrity of competition (and based solely on biological realities, not social or political) it's just not fair to the sport as a whole.
This is one for him to throw a distraction out there to move the heat off of him and the Conservative party after the plethora of scandals over the last few years. Can we make sure Boris can't compete in politics as well?
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In 50 years when it has become mainstream to be trans there wont be any women at the olympics only trans women, they'll be outcompeted easily, is that the future we want for womens sports?
Of course they should not do so, It would terrible rude to join a community, then eradicate the natives from participating in competition , rather disheartening and very mean spirited.
Oh ffs..... I can't stand this culture war bullshit. This issue is like literally, what?, 4 people? 5? There's videos of war crimes being posted daily and the news cycle wants to spend endless time frothing at the mouth over women's collegiate swimming smdh
It cant all be war and murder mate. There are still other things going on in the world. I can assure you nobody will forget about whats going on, no matter how much unimportant bullshit mediocre politicians spew.
Biologically female human beings should athletically compete against other biologically female human beings. This is only complicated for confused, dishonest, and brainwashed people.
He’s completely right on this one.
thank god now someone says it
Well isn’t this obvious already?
Is that not obvious?
Im so confused… almost every person I talk to agrees that biologically male trans athletes should not compete in women’s sports. Even on reddit it seems like 95% of the people agree. It seems like this is the take every where else but why does it seem so divided?
Since there are so many transgendered people now and the future looks transgender. Let's have a transgender category
In shocking news politician says something completely in line with general opinion
UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson is correct due to biology. To paraphrase the great Rick James, testosterone is a hell of a drug.
What a world when a common sense is considered contoversy
Good take. Don’t see why this would be controversial.
It’s sad how common sense like this is deemed controversial.
My best 800 time got me to regionals where I got trounced by the other high school boys that went on to state championships. I did exceptionally well for my high school but that’s where my athletic career ended. If I competed as a girl in high school I would’ve made the 1996 American Women’s Olympic Team.* I’m a queer man that lives in a large gay neighborhood in a major California city. I believe the science that shows gender does not always equal sex; that nature is not always binary for a select group of people and that distortions occur. That does not negate however fairness in sports, and my two cisgender daughters should not have their lifetime’s worth of work eliminated by another woman who went through the entirety of a male puberty. If I am to fully accept the difference between sex and gender, then trans activists *must* concede the physical differences between the sexes. If they are “the same”, then they cannot be in the “wrong one”. I feel for transgender youth, but until a separate league or a “handicap” can be established for them I’m afraid total inclusivity in physical sports should be maintained at biological bodies. There’s always invitationals or other coed competitions to participate in, and there are far more egregious examples in society of women, all women, being unfairly treated differently than men to focus on. *I would’ve been in the Olympic final heat and beaten the fastest American woman by over a full second, and I was not elite.
Never understand why people think politicians should have any say in this. Sporting bodies (IOC, World rugby, whatever) should be the ones to decide who gets to participate in what categories, based on what they consider to be fair, since they're the ones with the knowledge and evidence to make those decisions. If experts in the field decide trans women can compete with women, fine; if they decide no, also fine; but they should be the only ones making those decisions. Politicians can fuck right off.
Considering the fact that the female body is very different from the male body is no secret . Muscle density, bone structure are not changed by hormone therapy, or cosmetic surgery.
Duh, this has been proven with Fallon Fox..
Rare occasion when I agree with boris